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<paroneayea>spending all this time in guile over the last year has drastically chaned me as a python programmer!
<paroneayea>for the better I think
<paroneayea>I hope ;)
***dje is now known as xdje
<davexunit>ACTION writes basic manual for Haunt
<davexunit>writing docs is so much work
<paroneayea>hi hi
<paroneayea>oh fun davexunit
<paroneayea>or not fun :)
<paroneayea>davexunit: are you writing haunt's docs in haunt :)
<davexunit>it's both fun and not fun.
<davexunit>hehe no
<daviid`>ACTION is working on guile-squee, git house keeping wrt recent autool chained ...
<paroneayea>oh nice daviid`
<daviid`>yeah, sorry for the delay, but in an hour or so it's there!
<paroneayea>ACTION just popped some apples in the pressure cooker to reduce
<paroneayea>nice thing about electric pressure cooker, you don't need to stand around for it
<paroneayea>tossed some wine in there too
<paroneayea>some boozy applesauce dessert thing
<davexunit>I'm gonna make some sort of apple treat tomorrow
<davexunit>not sure if pie or dumplings or something else
<paroneayea>a good time of year for apple treats
<davexunit>oh yeah
<davexunit>new england at its best
<davexunit>cider, cider donuts, apple pie, apple everything
<holomorph>i keep meaning to poke guile's manual, it makes me sad it doesn't have a detailed node listing
<davexunit>would be a nice patch to add one
<paroneayea>initially I thought guile's manual was very short because of that
<paroneayea>I was very wrong :)
<daviid`>davexunit: paroneayea, done
<paroneayea>daviid`: \\o/
<paroneayea>daviid`: very cool
<daviid`>nice indeed
<davexunit>wow, guile's texinfo modules are awesome
<davexunit>I should be able to easily add texinfo support to haunt
<davexunit>stexi->shtml is awesome
<davexunit> "@url{, GNU}" -> (div (p (a (@ (href "")) "GNU")))
<daviid`>ACTION should use these modules too
<daviid`>going afk, bye
<davexunit>bam. texinfo support for Haunt written.
<davexunit>that was quick.
<paroneayea>awesome davexunit
<davexunit>I love when the parser is already written for me
<davexunit>ACTION pushed texinfo code to haunt master branch.
<davexunit>ACTION zzz...
<nalaginrut>afternoon guilers~
<nalaginrut>well, gambda ;-)
<civodul>Hello Guilers!
<amz3>héllo :)
<amz3>Imagine I create a macro as an alias of define using define-syntax/syntax-case
<amz3>(define-syntax foobar (lambda (stx)
<amz3> (syntax-case stx ()
<amz3> ((_ (name) body)
<amz3> #`(define (name) body)
<amz3>This is the skeleton, it's missing the interesting part
<amz3>it's missing a period before body, so the pattern transformer should be #`(define (name) . body)
<amz3>the problem I have is that I'd like to add something at the end of the body
<amz3>to do that, I can use `with-syntax` ?
<amz3>here is snippet with the full example
<amz3>well, I replaced `. body` with `body ...` then it's easier for me to add something at the end of generated procedure
<amz3>with: body ... (#,(datum->syntax stx 'yield) #,(datum->syntax stx 'eoc))
<amz3>my question is more: how do I manipulate a pattern inside syntax-case using datum->syntax/syntax->datum ?
<civodul>nobody here advocating Guile for Emacs?
<roelj>When I call a C function that outputs data to a file, it writes the entire expected data, but when I call it from Guile (the same C function exposed with scm_c_define_gsubr) it only outputs a part of the expected data. What could I be doing wrong?
<amz3>maybe string->pointer is failing?
<amz3>try with strings of the same size, but with simple content
<amz3>like "aaaaaaaaa"
<amz3>sorry this is stupid string->pointer is ok
<amz3>I remember having a problem with pointer->string not string->pointer
<amz3>but the problem was that I wasn't properly packing my c-struct...
<roelj>Ok. Let me check on my code..
<roelj>It's really (not) funny. In the function I call another function that fprintf's the data to a file.
<roelj>I'm not using any custom types..
<roelj>I figured it out! I need to explicitly fflush(the_file), because fclose() never gets called when the library is loaded into Guile.
<rekado>civodul: I would advocate Guile if this thread could be taken seriously.
<rekado>David Kastrup actually made the case for Guile already, although it probably was meant more as a lesson from history.
<davexunit>rekado: what thread is this?
<rekado>davexunit: it's "Emacs rewrite in a maintainable language"
<civodul>rekado: yeah, emacs-devel sometimes reminds me of bug-hurd in the 2000s: lots of talk, little code
<davexunit>I would have expected Eli to promote Guile
<davexunit>he is a guile contributor after all
<civodul>i followed up via Gmane, but as is often the case, Gmane silently swallowed my messages :-/
<davexunit>RMS posting a great little lisp poem!
<civodul>yeah i liked it!
<ArneBab>civodul: RMS poetry :)
<ArneBab>really nice!
<ArneBab>aww… backlog answering
<ArneBab>rekado: it sounds like the rewrite idea quickly turned into “move stuff from C to elisp”
<ArneBab>which would increase the impact of guile-emacs
<davexunit>we really need guile emacs.
<rekado>I have it open right now.
<rekado>sadly my config doesn't work.
<rekado>and the backtraces aren't very helpful
<davexunit>I hope the people that make the big decisions around there will see the advantages of guile over other options.
<ArneBab>I’m not on the list — can someone write about it there?
<ArneBab>“rewriting Elisp into a more maintainable language would be by far more effective.” →
<ArneBab>if you’re on the list, could you answer that this has been done by rebasing elisp on Guile?
<davexunit>David Kastrup has pointed this out in the thread
<ArneBab>I quoted him
<davexunit>yeah, I see that now.
<davexunit>he specifically mentions Guile elsewhere.
<ArneBab>but as far as I saw, there was no one who said “it’s been done”
<ArneBab>ah, ok
<ArneBab>I’m not there yet :)
<davexunit>we need to 1) get people on board with Guile as a general approach and 2) write the damn code
<ArneBab>reminds me… I wanted to test guile-emacs again
<davexunit>bipt has done it all so far. "no programmer is an island"
<davexunit>ArneBab: guix package -i guile-emacs
<ArneBab>…I wish we had funding…
<davexunit>I think someone could *definitely* raise funding for the guile-emacs work if they knew what they were doing.
<ArneBab>ACTION has to go looking for jobs which start april 2016
<civodul>OTOH we've already had quite a lot of funding for that project
<civodul>it's the social part that's not working as expected
<davexunit>yes, that's true.
<davexunit>the more senior emacs developers and former maintainers have not been convinced.
<ArneBab>I would expect this to be a pretty long process
<ArneBab>they lose their expertise if they go for that
<davexunit>well, not really. the majority of emacs is elisp.
<davexunit>that does not change.
<davexunit>we just change part of the C core to use the Guile VM instead of the custom elisp vm.
<ArneBab>well, the people working on the C core lose their expertise
<ArneBab>and for the others: I fear that guile-emacs needs a one-click install (or needs to be packaged)
<rekado>ArneBab: it's been packaged.
<ArneBab>we have the same problem for Freenet: The little hurdles count.
<rekado>(for Guix)
<ArneBab>rekado: for debian?
<davexunit>ArneBab: guix users can install it easily.
<ArneBab>it has to be packaged for the distros the maintainers use
<rekado>and you can use Guix on Debian.
<civodul>Guix users have sooo much comfort!
<ArneBab>(not complaining here)
<ArneBab>is there a debian package for guix?
<davexunit>no one has created one.
<civodul>at the same time, there's no Debian package for Guix
<ArneBab>if you could tell them: apt-get install guix; guix package -i guile-emacs
<ArneBab>^ that would help a lot
<ArneBab>(I think)
<rekado>I would love to help on making Guile Emacs a reality but I don't even know where to start.
<davexunit>that would be great, but no debian person has so far been interested in making such a package.
<ArneBab>for me starting means: I have to fix my guix
<rekado>it seems too early to test it, because so many packages seem not to work.
<ArneBab>davexunit: I fear that’s not how it works: guix is a potential competitor, so the package for userspace guix likely has to come from guix folks.
<rekado>I could live with it being slow if it worked.
<ArneBab>I’m now rebuilding guix
<davexunit>ArneBab: sure, but I don't know how to create Debian packages because it's so convoluted and terrible.
<rekado>same here.
<rekado>I can do RPM but Debian packages are difficult.
<ArneBab>with guix I just ran into error while loading shared libraries:
<davexunit>I use fpm at work as a short-circuit for having to learn it.
<rekado>davexunit: I also used fpm :)
<ArneBab>is it really that horrible? I thought that they are mostly tarballs…
<davexunit>it's not easy, and I also can't find straightforward documentation for how to do it.
<davexunit>a guix package is about a dozen lines of Scheme code usually, debian packages are much more complex.
<ArneBab>this explanation of luatex is a very nice example how to get a working system:
<ArneBab>“They get results as opposed to the several failed projects preceding
<ArneBab>them. But the main reason is that they don't bother with a coherent
<ArneBab>design rather than getting results.”
<ArneBab>also regarding guile-emacs: The minimal bar to make this the default version is to make it run on every system which runs Emacs. This is sure to be a long process.
<davexunit>I think the only work that would need to be done would be on windows
<davexunit>guile runs just fine on UNIX-like systems.
<ArneBab>are the relocatable patches I heard about a few months ago (here) already merged yet (and will they be in 2.0.12)?
<rekado>davexunit: and DOS. I think Emacs also runs on DOS.
<rekado>(I tried it on FreeDOS but apparantly 8MB are not enough.)
<davexunit>no way, really?
<davexunit>I think such a platform could be safely dropped for a large improvement of emacs on GNU systems.
<ArneBab>as a note while reading: Emacs is not too slow.
<ArneBab>davexunit: not being everywhere means that some people could no longer depend on having Emacs available
<davexunit>ArneBab: but, DOS??
<ArneBab>do we have numbers which show how many old dos machines are still maintained in industry?
<ArneBab>(though it begs the question whether they use old emacs or current emacs)
<davexunit>that cannot hold back development of the GNU system, though.
<ArneBab>the GNU system also targets rising adoption
<ArneBab>(which isn’t to say that this requirement is necessary, just that it’s not quite as simple)
<ArneBab>I once read an article about “no one knows what the typical programmer does”
<ArneBab>one more message which begs for a “there’s guile-emacs” reply:
<ArneBab>“the string thing is a performance killer” ← are there plans to fix that?
<rekado>do the Guile Emacs enthusiasts have a place to discuss bugs and development?
<rekado>I doubt emacs-devel would be the right place.
<ArneBab>maybe #guile?
<civodul>or guile-user
<ArneBab>or would it be too much noise?
<ArneBab>it sounds like guile-emacs could get adoption if it could improve the performance of font-lock (from what people complain about)
<ArneBab>^ well, some adoption, because it would be better for some more people
<ArneBab>I found something really useful from that thread: ← someone already gave a name to what irks me the most in KDE.
<unknown_lamer>ArneBab: oh man
<unknown_lamer>ArneBab: kde5 is killing me
<unknown_lamer>part of me just wants to go back to wmaker + cairo-compmgr, if that even works any more... I was seduced by wobbly windows and the pager
<unknown_lamer>how hard is it to not rewrite the network and system load monitors to be worse every release :(
<unknown_lamer>ArneBab: iirc bipt might be getting some time to work on guile-emacs as part of eir job or something
<unknown_lamer>haven't talked to em in a few months though, ey dropped off the face of the planet or something
<unknown_lamer>guile-emacs works and works really well too, it can be used as a day to day editor...
<unknown_lamer>but bipt literally *refused* to promote it at all, when I worked from /. I tried to get status updates and write articles on it...
<unknown_lamer>social anxiety is killer :(
<unknown_lamer>I think the emacs people haven't been convinced because no one has even tried to convince them
<sirgazil>nalaginrut: glad your site feed is working now, because I'm waiting for your guile+robot post :)
<nalaginrut>sirgazil: still debugging it now ;-)
<sirgazil>ACTION reads new GNU ethical repository criteria v1.0
<amz3>I'm trying to rewrite the GLL in terms of coroutines/generator
<amz3>it happens that the left recursive grammars support is implemented in memo-cps
<amz3>it looks like memo-cps detects the infinite recursion of a grammar and drop it
<amz3>I pretty sure that memo-cps does solve the infinite recursion problem of left recursive grammars
<amz3>The problem is that GLL implementation use a strange word to describe the procedure that detect the loop
<amz3>--> subsumed
<amz3>never heard of this verb "to subsume" the definition is difficult, and it happens to be also a verb in french
<amz3>which is link to philosophy
<amz3>for text/sentence segmentation, I really need recursive grammar support because I can't really decide "what's in a quote without using the prior definition of a sentence"
<amz3>I mean quote is defined more or less as (define* ((quote) stream cont) (string "\\"") sentence (string "\\""))
<amz3>well this code ^ doesn't run, but that's the idea
<amz3>I think I will have try at guile-log again instead...