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***fangism is now known as fangism-ctrl-Z
<nalaginrut>morning guilers~
***sneek_ is now known as sneek
<kurohin>good morning schemers
<nalaginrut>I have to hack more before I die
*nalaginrut spend 10x hack power from now on...
<nalaginrut>I'm in Shenzhen, you may look the right side
<b4283>nalaginrut: the numbers of shanghai is crazy
<nalaginrut>ah, yeah
***haroldwu is now known as haroldwu_away
<civodul>Hello Guilers!
<civodul>mark_weaver: interesting bug that you found
<ArneBab>moin civodul
***mario-go` is now known as mario-goulart
***sneek_ is now known as sneek
<stis>tjenixen guilers!
<dsmith-work>Happy Friday, Guilers!!
<davexunit>what is tjenixen?
<dsmith-work>Google translate thinks it's Albanien
<civodul>Happy Friday!
*dsmith-work will be in Irvine CA all next week
<dsmith-work>Any guilers out there?
<stis>tjenixen, or tjena, just an ordinary 'hi' in swedisch slang.
<stis>google finds this
<dsmith-work>stis: Huj
***sethalve_ is now known as sethalves
<hiawatha>Can guile be used with a web framework or for web dev ?
<hiawatha>mark_weaver, how?
<mark_weaver>well, here's the built-in functionality, which is fairly basic:
<mark_weaver>you might also want to take a look at Artanis, developed by nalaginrut who is often here on #guile.
<mark_weaver>there's not yet anything as full-featured as you'll find elsewhere, though.
<mark_weaver>some other relevant links:
<hiawatha>is it good to be your first lang ??
<ijp>you could do a lot worse
<mark_weaver>IMO, Scheme is a good first language to learn.
<mark_weaver>hiawatha: have you done any programming before at all?
<hiawatha>In high school with c++
<hiawatha>I used Turbo C++ back then as a compiler
<mark_weaver>C++ is probably the worst possible language to start out with.
<hiawatha>The best program I made was a program that used a local lang fonts in it and printed results also saved them in a file for us
<hiawatha>ya but I didn't know what 2 do .. and everyone said C/c++ r the only lang.
<hiawatha>I dind't have internet back then .. NO did i know what unix/linux/bsd was
<mark_weaver>it's not your fault; you were misled :)
<ijp>simpler times, when men were men and wrote their own device drivers
<hiawatha>Also my school has only two books .. Let us C and Let us C++
<hiawatha>but now i want to host simple programs on my own webserver
<hiawatha>I was a computer buff back then now i m a lawyer though
<ijp>my first programming language was one of those crappy basics for a microcontroller with a dozen registers worth of memory
<ijp>writable memory that is, obviously there was more for the program
<davexunit>my first programming language was microsoft quickbasic.
<ijp>I suppose there was that one time I used logo when I was 7
<hiawatha>what do you guys suggest for a new bie who is higly interest in web programming like host his regular program online.. or on his own server ..
<hiawatha>microsoft vb was so popular around here
<mark_weaver>hiawatha: well, apart from web programming, it would be good to learn the basics of scheme programming.
<ijp>mark_weaver: come on, you should be able to one up me :)
<mark_weaver>ijp: heh, right now I want to help hiawatha
<davexunit>hiawatha: do you want to use a scheme/lisp specifically?
<davexunit>you'll find a lot of resources for web programming using python and ruby.
<davexunit>if you're just looking to make a web application regardless of language.
<mark_weaver>hiawatha: I can think of a couple of books that would be good. One option is The Little Schemer, and its sequel The Seasoned Schemer.
<hiawatha>davexunit, no i don't want to use scheme/lisp if no easy web dev options are available .. i came here cuz i love how GNU changed the world.. :)
<ijp>you could go with racket, their web framework is relatively comprehensive, if not exactly conventional
<hiawatha>Python and ruby .. ya but I would go with Perl + some framework instead as I can't config other's framework on my webserver .. they don't work
<mark_weaver>Perl, ugh..
<hiawatha>mark_weaver, ??
<hiawatha>racket ?? ijp
<davexunit>hiawatha: while I do urge you to spend some time learning Scheme, and Guile in particular, ruby has the popular frameworks Rails and Sinatra, and python has Django and Flask
<ijp>I have a few rules. no perl. no php. no shell scripts longer than a screenful.
<mark_weaver>I used to love Perl, about 20 years ago.
<ijp>I'd say no shell altogether, but sometimes you just want to set a couple of environment variables
<mark_weaver>it's very good for simple text processing tasks, but it's a very poorly designed language and doesn't fare well when you start to do more complex things with it.
<davexunit>as an intern at an ISP, I had to maintain a Perl web application that was used for managing all of the company's customers.
<davexunit>the code was a nightmare.
<davexunit>I learned enough Perl to get by and have since forgotten it entirely.
<mark_weaver>where is wingo's video presentation where he creates a little web application in a few minutes?
<ijp>I think it was called bitter
<davexunit>ooh I haven't seen that.
<mark_weaver>right, and it seems to be impervious to my attempts to find it using search engines :-(
<mark_weaver>ah yes, thanks.
<hiawatha>perl/python/php/ruby all same for newbie
<mark_weaver>hiawatha: in my opinion (and also in RMS's opinion for what it's worth) Scheme (and Lisp) are much more powerful and flexible than Perl/Python/PHP/Ruby. However, it is not nearly as popular, so the community around it is much smaller, and web frameworks for Scheme are less comprehensive. So that's your tradeoff.
<hiawatha>mark_weaver, I would only know when I try ..
<hiawatha>but wait Lisp or Scheme again ?
<hiawatha>you know my implementation
<mark_weaver>(sorry, was on the phone)
<mark_weaver>Guile is based on Scheme, which is an offshoot of Lisp.
<mark_weaver>Racket is also based on Scheme.
<mark_weaver>hiawatha: I'm not sure I understand your last few messages.
<mark_weaver>If you want to go the Racket route, then "How to Design Programs" is a good starting point for learning to program in Scheme.
<mark_weaver>If you want to use Guile, then I'd probably recommend The Little Schemer and The Seasoned Schemer to teach you the basics of programming in Scheme, and I think you'll find that we here on #guile are glad to answer your questions when we're around :)
<davexunit>ping timeout :(
<davexunit>I need to finish the little schemer, I got about halfway through before I took a long break.
<dsmith-work>Perl was awesome back when there was nothing else.
<dsmith-work>Esapically on dos
<DerGuteMoritz>good thing we have lisp these days!
*dsmith-work 's first bit of code was in machine code (not asm!) on a ibm 360.
<dsmith-work>hex 47 was branch on condition.. Sheesh.
<jao>dsmith-work, you're a REAL programmer... kids these days!
<davexunit>>tfw you never wrote machine code and barely any asm
<dsmith-work>Almost got a steak dinner for being the first one to get it right, but I had a bit flipped and my name came out at smich instead of smith.
***fangism-ctrl-Z is now known as fangism
<ijp>davexunit: I had to do direct machine code exactly once as part of a "programming for EE students" course
<ijp>but unless someone started off toggling switches, I think dsmith-work wins
<ijp>I wouldn't put it past wingo
<dsmith-work>ijp: This machine didn't have toggles. It had dials with hex numbers. One dial for each nybble.
<dsmith-work>A model 30. The model 50 had a toggle for each bit..