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2026-03-21.log
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<fossy>Googulator: I don't think AI attribution has any place in REUSE headers. AI cannot hold copyright <fossy>stikonas: that is a good point <fossy>lanodan: i am sympathetic to that take, but i don't know how useful that is? people will just do it anyway, i think, just ignore the guideline, and then what positive benefit does that have, we're assuming good faith, or it makes no difference? <fossy>re: non-compatible licensing, i don't think thats a great comparison either, because the case for people violating that intentionally is fairly limited: they would have to intentionally pass off code they _know_ they didn't write as theirs <fossy>*and*, it would have to be code that's not already open source available <fossy>this seems fairly rare to me, and is also considered anathema by most <fossy>on the other hand, LLM use is not, always, and so it's much more likely <fossy>(to be intentionally violated) <fossy>deesix: i'm not sure what moral discussion would add value here? if we conclude LLM use is immoral, then we should not allow it, but I think it's very hard to enforce that. <fossy>like, a comparison might be that I would like to say something like "we will not engage with anyone from Company X", because I find Company X immoral, but I wouldn't ever put that as a policy, because then Company X is just incentivised to not tell me that they are from Company X <fossy>and thus, overall, the policy is meaningless <lanodan>Well part of why I'm for banning it is I tend to see LLMs and related as bots getting inserted into volunteer social spaces without any sort of prior approval and community control. Licences are mainly a legal problem but it's also a bit of a code of honor / social contract (as not everyone has a lawyer ready). <lanodan>And yes, I know, people lie/cheat/… but that doesn't means you can't build expectations or rules, most forums do and have moderators as ways of enforcing them. <stikonas>fossy: while you are here, shall we upgrade nyacc in live-bootstrap? <fossy>lanodan: fair, and i'm not advocating for a social use of it. but it is (relatively) easy to arbiter licenses and forums socially, but not so much for LLMs, imo <fossy>personally, i can no longer distinguish human-written code from llm code, particularly not a novice's human-written code <fossy>stikonas: what is the slowdown? i've heard that it's slower, but not sure by how much <fossy>stikonas: is there any other benefit? <stikonas>yeah, especially those more advanced models such as opus 4.6 are quite good <stikonas>fossy: well, slowdown is about 2.5, so takes maybe 14 minutes to recreate pregenerated files <stikonas>that's probably because it has more C parser rules <stikonas>the main benefit is I guess it is pure upstream <fossy>but mes is not slower, right? <stikonas>perhaps mes will get faster later with ekaitz's work <fossy>sure, was only wondering cause mescc uses nyacc <stikonas>this is purely because newer nyacc has more lalr parser rules <stikonas>perhaps wecan try to combine it with when mes gets a bit faster <fossy>if mes was a repo-d package, then i'd care a bit less, but mes is in the path of most things... <stikonas>or when we have to in order to drop tinycc <fossy>yeah, that would be an improvement <fossy>if there was any other compelling reason to do it, i wouldn't really mind, but i don't see heaps of benefit here <ekaitz>stikonas: how perhaps! it will be faster <stikonas>well, I perhaps were towards combining two upgrades