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<oriansj>but perhaps that is me just seeing more work to be done after all of the "impossible bits" were solved and worrying that I am not doing enough to move the needle in the right direction.

<stikonas>well, there is still more baremetal bootstrap work to be done

<stikonas>and also userspace bootstrap

<stikonas>e.g. UEFI bootstrap is still very immature

<stikonas>other non x86 arches...

<oriansj>yeah, porting builder-hex0 to armv7l, aarch64 and RISC-V

<oriansj>doing the PowerPC ports of stage0

<oriansj>and SPARC ports of stage0

<oriansj>(possibly MIPS, Alpha, z80 and 6502)

<oriansj>and that isn't even counting the oddballs like HPPA, IA64, Loong, m68k, and s390

<oriansj>oh and solving the Haskell bootstrap problem

<lanodan>And Haskell isn't even the only one that doesn't bootstraps, Erlang doesn't either for example.

<Googulator>OCaml got very close, but ultimately fell short

<Googulator>the actual initial bootstrap is done up to 4.07.something IIRC

<Googulator>but not propagated forward

<oriansj>lanodan: indeed and probably far more; so we and the guix community (as the nix community seems fine with blobs) have to continue building new bootstrap chains and maintaining the bootstrap chains that already exist

<oriansj>Googulator: wow, someone went through all of the effort required and then the entire community for that language gave up when it would have been easy. That is a very troubling sign

<Googulator>OCaml seems to take a very weird approach to bootstrapping

<Googulator>they simply have prebuilt binaries checked into Git

<Googulator>which are used during build

<Googulator>and in every commit that changes certain critical code, contributors are expected to also include updated binaries

<Googulator>So there's no real record of what earlier versions are sufficient for building the current one - the build always uses the prebuilts in Git instead of the ones on your system

<theruran>this_is_fine.jpg

<matrix_bridge><Andrius Štikonas> Yeah ocaml is nasty in this regard

<matrix_bridge><Andrius Štikonas> At least with rust or go you can use system binary

<matrix_bridge><Andrius Štikonas> Maybe it's the easiest project to insert recursive backdoor in then...

<Googulator>yeah, just abuse the rebootstrap process once

<Googulator>at least I hope they do an automated check for reproducibility of the bootstrap binaries using the commit's source and its included binaries

<Googulator>but even that can be overcome with some additional trusting-trustery

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2024-04-23.log