<jlicht>or alternatively, get some kind of grey-listing system enabled on the ML for the next days perhaps
<ng0>gnu_srs2: there are now 6 maintainers (or something around that)
<jlicht>gnu_srs2: it is the middle of the night for a lot of guix users, so I do hope we are still at a stage of civil discourse where we can at least give each other the benefit of healthy sleeping habits :-)
<verisimilitude>It's a shame I no longer feel at ease with using Guix as my GNU/Linux distribution.
<verisimilitude>There's no longer the expectation that someone won't add something malicious for tangential purposes.
<verisimilitude>My Guix has been unable to successfully update for months, anyway.
<verisimilitude>This would change if the current Guix administration is removed, though; I've tried contributing to this project before, admittedly accomplishing nothing, but I certainly won't even try to help again until something is done with regards to this vile nonsense.
<mange>Can you explain the logic by which you're getting to "Guix maintainers might modify Guix to install malicious software on my machine"?
<mange>I do know that, but I don't understand how that statement causes you to doubt Guix's commitment to "software freedom for users of software". Could you help me to understand that progression?
<nckx>verisimilitude: That statement is hardly ‘tangential’ to GNU, though. Or incompatible with software freedom.
*nckx is also not in the mood for this, goes hackin'.
<verisimilitude>By claiming that a core value of GNU is undermined in this way, they actually seek to promote tangential concerns, clearly meaning they seek to advocate for ``minorities'' or other ``oppressed'' people at the expense of others, believing this to be an issue of explicit keeping out rather than lack of interest from those parties.
<nckx>There's certainly no logical connection to malware in Guix, which will never be acceptable.
<mange>verisimilitude: To check that I understand your objection to that statement correctly: do you object to the spirit of the statement ("The GNU Project we want to build is one that *everyone* can trust to defend their freedom."), or do you object to the claim that "Stallman's behavior over the years has [...] alienate[d] a large part of those we want to reach out to"?
<nckx>truby: That would be Mathieu Othacehe (I don't know their nick, if they even frequent #guix, but at least you can send them good vibes).
<truby>I'll have to try it out at work tomorrow :-) I had some hacked together thing I was using internally but this package looks better than mine!
<verisimilitude>I believe claiming GNU isn't already for everyone is disingenuous and that RMS has alienated people to largely be a lie. I believe it's a snake seeking to slither deeper inside, because if GNU isn't already for everyone, then that means GNU needs to change to accomodate everyone, and that means taking politically tangential actions to do so.
<verisimilitude>Andy Wingo has already made the increasingly common claim that Free Software volunteers are ``privileged''; it's an interesting way to attack people doing charity work, claiming others want to do it, but just can't and need more help.
<nckx>I seriously love the alliterative snake imagery.
<mange>verisimilitude: I take it you think that GNU is already for everyone. Are there any ways that you think GNU might make it difficult for people to contribute or be involved? And do you think that harms GNU in any way?
<verisimilitude>I don't think GNU makes it particularly difficult to contribute, no. There's the issue of copyright assignment that's been cited as bothersome, however.
<rk4_>ah screw it. i don't have the energy for this petty 2019 politics. i'm out. what happened to freedom, tolerance and forgiveness. i don't want to be part of this anti-rms bandwagon.
<Gamayun>verisimilitude: Even if RMS were the very model of good behaviour and leadership, I don't think having the same person in a leadership position with no rotation or relief for over 30 is a healthy sign in any organisation...
<nckx>r4k_: What's ‘2019’ about it? The exact same problems were already well-known and -discussed in 2009…
<Gamayun>As someone who admires RMS, I always thought the talk of "hero worship" was overblown. Seems like it wasn't.
<nckx>It's interesting how utterly important it is to them to protect the ‘this is a recent reaction to recent events!!’ spin, when all the evidence contradicts it. Allows pretending that it's all the fault of some random silly Medium post, I guess. Must grasp at that straw, or the carefully constructed rms strawman comes crumbling down.
<nckx>Holy mixed metaphors Batman, that was terrible.
<Gamayun>Well, he does advocate against US parents coddling and infantilising their children and young. Hopefully he'll be able to let his own "children" grow up too! ;-)
<nckx>…and learn that letting them grow up doesn't mean letting go entirely. But it does require trust.
<nckx>Gamayun bringin' the actual good metaphors tonight, thank you.
<Gamayun>nckx: Sure. ;-) Hope you're not getting too swamped.
<nckx>Tonight's been better. Or I just ran out of energy to force myself to take it seriously. Either's good 🙂
<verisimilitude>I don't think it's an issue, mange. I'm not worshipping RMS, merely reacting in a way I find appropriate to this obvious hostile takeover being orchestrated.
<verisimilitude>Andy Wingo has previously stated he'd prefer working with someone incompetent, so long as the incompetent shared his political beliefs. Miguel de Icaza is a Microsoft shill who decided it was recently a good time to share RMS stories. The woman who wrote the Medium post is a Salesforce employee who also has ties to defense contractors.
<verisimilitude>Corporate interests clearly want to split Free Software into impotent shards and a good first step is introducing tangential political beliefs people can start bickering over, along with attacking others.
<nckx>Gamayun: When you're even vaguely representative of a project (or seen as such) there's this weird, self-imposed moral obligation to take critics seriously even while they're calling you a *checks notes* …‘NSA plant’. Once you realise you owe them nothing, things get marginally better.
<verisimilitude>Even if RMS has made GNU unwelcoming, Free Software is distributed.
<nckx>verisimilitude: Then stop bickering and attacking others? That would actually foil their plan.
<verisimilitude>I'm a user of GNU software, not really a contributor, but I work on my own software on my own, how I want to. GNU is not at the heart of this. Anyone who wants to contribute to Free Software but wouldn't want to do so alone at some point is weak, in a way.
<verisimilitude>I'm simply raising some concerns about the leadership of Guix, nckx.
<nckx>Then they were entirely lost between all the needlessly aggressive rhetoric, which is another very good reason to drop it. Apart from the obvious fact that such invective is not welcomed here, of course.
<verisimilitude>Until next time, then; I'll be giving thought to which distribution I want to use next.
<Gamayun>And here I thought the original corporate "open source" objection to "free software" was the bickering over "tangential political beliefs".
<Gamayun>But I get some of the concern. I hope the alternative to RMS isn't the endless stream of well-presented media-savvy "leaders" that use NGOs and charities as their personal corporate career runway. Not that anyone's proposing that, but good collective leadership is hard to build.
*kmicu [impersonating Robin Williams] Gooooooooooood mornin’ Guiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiixxxx!
<bdju>I keep running out of disk space trying to update, then I guix gc, and it seems I then have to rebuild what I just built. I'm definitely building racket for the third time now... really quite awful
<bdju>I deleted some generations before the gc this time so maybe I have a better shot
<bdju>I've got my cpu at 95C and I'm getting occasional mouse lag
<bdju>I guess if this fails again (hopefully sooner than 12 hours from now) I'll add racket to the list of stuff to not update
<bdju>I keep going to bed with stuff trying to update and waking up to a failure for one reason or another
<bdju>I'm thinking if I knew a bit more there would probably have been a less painful path, like if racket really was built, maybe I could've sent the binary to another machine before the gc
<bdju>or maybe because none of the updates have finished, I'm not being left with an actual binary... not sure
<roptat>bdju: if racket is built but the transaction (upgrade) is not finished, it's not considered live, because it's not reachable from a gc root, so gc will collect it
<roptat>What you can do is run guix environment --ad-hoc racket, which will create a temporary root for the gc
<roptat>Then guix gc won't collect racket as long as you are in the environment
<ng0>Jean Louis must have so much time. I don't know why some of you keep replying to Jean, this is the same kind of behavior Jean has shown in 2016.
<ng0>I bet someone could setup a markovchain bot and keep Jean busy for a long time if they wanted to.. in theory..
<lprndn>hum. I'm currently using a mix of xfce4 and pantheon as my DE under guix system. The thing is that unless I also put mate-desktop-service in my configuration, pantheon's settings don't work (they don't affect the system). FYI pantheon use more or less gnome-settings-daemon to do that.
<lprndn>So my question is, does someone has a lead for where to look for a solution. My guess for now, is that's either an env variable missing or a propagated-input as, otherwise, the mate serive shouldn't affect this behaviour
<leoprikler>not quite sure about that, but I'm pretty sure that "init twice" is an error
<leoprikler>so I don't think there are any guarantees if you do that
<shrdlu68>I use kitty terminal emulator, and it's terminfo is not in the ncurses database. Solving this is a simple as downloading it's terminfo and placing it in $TERMINFO_DIRS. What is the best way to solve this?
<shrdlu68>I'm thinking perhaps adding this file to skeletons might be the most straightforward solution, just place it in ~/.terminfo/
<shrdlu68>leoprikler: By the way I'm trying to the get the terminfo on a server where kitty is not installed. On my desktop $TERMINFO is `/usr/lib64/kitty/terminfo/`, so it's probably exported by kitty itself.
<shrdlu68>Nor does installing kitty on the server help.
<leoprikler>doing `echo $TERMINFO` on guix yields `/gnu/store/*-kitty-*/lib/kitty/terminfo`
<leoprikler>lprndn: did you fix your problem with package outputs?
<olivuser>Due to an error on my part, guix system reconfigure wrote to another disk on which there was data dear to me. I already used ddrescue to clone said harddrive, but now dont really know how to proceed. can anyone tell me where to go from thereon?
<g_bor>olivuser: it very much depends on what has been overridden. When did you detect the problem? How much data did you have? How much data was written?
<olivuser>g_bor: let me provide you with as much info as I've got. I had another operating system installed on a ssd drive using the lvm2 filesystem (/dev/sdaX). from guix, I system reconfigure'd to the same slot (/dev/sdaX). Gparted says that the filesystem is still lvm2, even though guix would normally have used another file system architecture, and the reconfigure was not successful. I reconfigured yesterday only to discover the
<olivuser>problem today. Well it was not a ton of data (GB-wise), but stuff that I use regularly (like, my emacs config file and work-related files). How much data was written I cannot really tell, since gparted displays the partition, but not how much space is free/used. As far as I know, its origional label was not gpt. and the drive which I "overwrote" consisted of more than one partition, but only one of the two is relevant to me.
<olivuser>the other partition is only the bootloader which I dont consider critical.
<olivuser>and as I said, I already ran a ddrescue of said partition (/dev/sdb2) to another partition which was completely freed of data (/dev/sda5). There were no problems in the process, but if I understand correctly, I have rescued, not yet recovered said data.
<leoprikler>olivuser: can you mount /dev/sda5 and inspect the rescued data?
<roptat>so grub was installed with a faulty configuration?
<olivuser>roptat: unfortunately, I'm not sufficiently into bootloaders to be able to judge. probably, since either distribution has its own bootloader.
<olivuser>that is, I choose which harddrive to boot from, and then either fires up its own bootloader
<olivuser>leoprikler: and the status says NOT available in both cases
<leoprikler>Try `modprobe dm-mod` followed by `vgchange -ay` to make them active
<olivuser>leoprikler: "Cannot activate LVs in VG SolusSystem while PVs appear on duplicate devices." thats the error message that it throws. It is probably because I had ddrescue clone /dev/sdb2 to /dev/sda5. I have unmounted /dev/sda5, but the error persists
<bdju>when building ghc I seem to get to 100% but then it stays there... shouldn't it say 99% if it isn't really done?
<olivuser>w.r.t doesnt ring a bell, unfortunately. There is no mention of extended partition, they are displayed as "partition 1" and "partition 2". Also, Parition one (/dev/sdb1) is fs-type ext4 and bootable, while partition two (/dev/sdb2) is lvm2 pv
<olivuser>leoprikler: would it make sense to delete /dev/sda5 (clone of /dev/sdb2) in order to test whether pvchange works? Because I did not run into any error while cloning it, and I suspect I could clone it again should pychange not be successful
<leoprikler>I'm not sure -- all you did was activate the volume
<olivuser>alright. at least I know now how to proceed. and I'm not sad for the operating system, only the data.
<fps>hmm, i still can't login to i3 using a fresh install of guix in virtualbox. the login manager screen just freezes. going to the console with ctrl-alt-f1 and back to the login manager just resets the login manager
<olivuser>Now to my second problem :D I accidentally guix system reconfigure'd to the wrong hdd. The data I believed lost is now safe-ish. But still, I cannot boot into guix. Being the sole connected hdd, I enter in grub-rescue, because "symbol 'grub_file_filters' not found". Ideas anyone?
***apteryx_ is now known as apteryx
<fps>the login manager has nifty features like a calender, settings for high contrast, etc.. but there's one job a login manager should excel at
<lprndn>by the way, I sent some patches to guix-patches adding a lightdm service some time ago. I think the multiple patches are a little daunting to review. Is it ok (or even useful) if I resend them separetely?
<nckx>dutchie: Oh, now I remember… I left a message with sneek that they never delivered 😠 Saying that ‘--fallback’ was probably not the fix, just running it until it happens to work.
<g_bor>nckx: I will try this again and tell you how it went.
<efraim>lprndn: I remember the lightdm patches, I have them starred for looking at later. I'd suggest bumping them with a ping message or something. The only way I'd go for trying for a faster review would be to include a vm config using it
<nckx>dutchie: Thank you for filing that bug. I've merged it with dannym's (later) one.
<dutchie>ah well, it never showed up on my other computer anyway
<g_bor>hmm... somehow my other machine insists on trying to build icecat...
<nckx>g_bor: I thought so too at first, but then I wonder why it worked for me without --fallback. I used substitutes, and never bothered adding any locales anywhere. 🤔 Oh well. It doesn't really matter which work-around works, folks can just try all of 'em! Yey.
<g_bor>Do we actually know what is wrong with nss-certs?
<nckx>g_bor: I don't know, but nss-certs has been notorious in the past for pushing the boundaries of your average Unix file encoding. Nothing wrong with it, but a very good fuzz test. It doesn't surprise me that it's this package that dies like a canary, again.
<g_bor>I believe it is filenames with special characters, but why is it causing a problem?
<nckx>Yeah, well, locales, black magic, I stay far away.
<lprndn>efraim: Thanks. I'll try do add a vm config soon. But don't worry, it's really not a hurry, I just wanted to know if I could ease the reviewers' job.
<nckx>Someone here this week had a bug that went away when they used en_GB instead of en_US. I'm not meddling with that kind of evil.
<nckx>Oops, s/file encoding/file name encoding/ above.
<nckx>I'm going to pull a guix from Sept 24 and see what happens. Surely it must suggest --news.
<leoprikler>Does guix pull even suggest --news if it's the first pull that is done?
<leoprikler>by the way, how do I send patches? I've tried firstname.lastname@example.org (some hours ago), but my patch won't show up
<nckx>Another good question my poor laptop is chugging away at a VM image to answer 🙂
<nckx>leoprikler: That's it. There's an insanely variable delay. Sorry.
<nckx>leoprikler: It's also (human-)moderated on first post from any address.
<efraim>I found a breaking bug on the core-update merge! I reconfigured and rebooted, and the battery in my mouse died!
<nckx>efraim: This is spooky, because that literally happened to me y'day.
<bdju>I feel bad about this but I think I am gonna cancel the build and uninstall ghc. it will be someone else's problem to report. I don't even program in haskell. I had it to run a friend's stuff and maybe learn, but it's just a problem for me at this point.
<nckx>bdju: I understand. I just started building email@example.com when you said that. I'll let know what happens.
<nckx>bdju: There's no mystery (or Guix bug) to GHC, and it wasn't stuck. It prints a misleading progress up to 100% during the first few minutes (that Guix believes) but then continues to build for hours. It's still going. Unfortunate, but not worth adding a hack in Guix IMO.
<nckx>Hm, just noticed it's printing new progress information now, in the format ‘=====> T12368a(optasm) 4655 of 6523’.
<nckx>So we either add that format to Guix's sniffer and have a progress bar that goes to 100% slowly, then back to 0, then back to 100 over x hours (yuck) or add some kind of (progress-format . 'ghc) property (yuck) or… any other ideas welcome.
<leoprikler>I like how they repeatedly use a specific term as if they had just learned about it that day.
<nckx>And, especially ironic considering the ridiculous accusations slung at him, too democratic. And that takes time.
<davexunit>if I may add just one more comment. their web page has a paragraph that says something to the effect of "you can hack on an OS but you can't figure out how to enable comments on your blog." as the author of the tool used to generate the guix website I just found that very funny.
<rushsteve1>davexunit: Our of curiosity how is the Guix website generated? I've been considering trying to contribute a search box for the packages page.
<davexunit>rushsteve1: it uses a static site generator, which is why there is no search function on the packages page. I haven't kept up with the discussion but I think the plan was to eventually create a real web application for things like the package list so there's a true server component that can process things like searches.
<nckx>leoprikler: Which term is that? ‘Rollback’? I lol'd at that.
<davexunit>which reminds me that I have a pile of patches that people sent me months ago that I haven't gotten around to dealing with yet because I haven't done any free software hacking in many months.
<leoprikler>nckx: wait, now I need to check whether they even mention rollbacks
<ng0>hm. reminds me I should merge haunt and get back to you if there was any potential weird error going on. so this should land in the next quarterly release of pkgsrc.
<rushsteve1>davexunit: Ah. If it's just a static site generator then it's probably best for me to just leave it.
<nckx>It's the central theme to one of the domains. There are just too many.
<davexunit>on another topic, thanks to whoever fixed the coin3d package! I can install freecad now, but unfortunately it seems to have some non-fatal error that causes the application to not be able to do much of anything.
<davexunit>rushsteve1: I would bet that writing a small guile web server that could handle package search queries would go a long way towards solving the issue. I don't know if this has happened yet, but guix is supposed to be getting its own dedicated web server which will unblock this project.
<davexunit>it's impossible to host anything other than static content on gnu.org's server.
<nckx>leoprikler: I don't want to paste it here, at the expense of sane conversation. Sorry.
<davexunit>that web page can be found if you really want to see it. it was directly linked to in the initial barrage of emails.
<davexunit>but spreading it around further via direct linking is not a great idea.
<leoprikler>davexunit: I thought it was that one. I accidentally dug it up earlier today
<bdju>weston still fails to build (already reported earlier, just thought I'd mention it)
<cbaines>I wonder if this is something to do with Savannah
<cbaines>After reverting the changes to revision 7 of the guix package, I get the same error for a different commit error: Server does not allow request for unadvertised object 0ed97e69805253656df929a6ad678016aa81f08a
<cbaines>I think this is something that's configurable with a Git server, you can configure what commits you can fetch, so maybe that's changed?
<cbaines>We could test this by pushing a branch to Savannah for one of these commits, if it can then be fetched, then we've at least worked around the issue
<rushsteve1>Bug report email sent. Has the stderr log attached
<nckx>cbaines: That's not a fatal error and happens quite often. Are you saying it's the fatal cause here?
<vagrantc>the git it was updated to happened to be the guix-jupyter commit
<nckx>cbaines: I completely agree that this would be a legitimate use of a splainy commit message.
<nckx>vagrantc: Ah, maybe Ludo was a bit too excited ;-)
<rushsteve1>Yeah that's the commit hash that is failing for me too
<cbaines>Maybe the hash is wrong, I see @ hash-mismatch /gnu/store/sin7s2f4qw3f17fs8gfv4n059dciml9j-guix-1.0.1-7.fc1fe72-checkout r:sha256 1j2d9anxgybv86pxcn1zdv121hb4nmjjp5ngx365fnd0mcg8q1iw 0yx19hxvmkr6ar65ym87xd83n6hz02mr7ibwis7i8wah85ypfq26
<rushsteve1>I just realized I put the wrong one in my email...
<apteryx>do you mean because of ABI breakage (there's a warning about it when it happens) -- typically I run 'make clean-go' and rebuild everything to make sure, but supposedly you could find the affected files and purge just these.
<ATuin>I don't really think it's because ABI breakage. I have the feeling that i'm doing something wrong
<apteryx>OK, then what makes you think 'you need to recompile it from scratch'? do you just run 'make', and it builds lots of stuff?