<nckx>bendersteed: What hype was that? <rekado>nckx: I worked a little on the webkit thing (moved it from the old API to the async API), but I wouldn’t use it myself <nckx>rekado: Thanks for the honest opinion. <rekado>nckx: it’s severely limited by the fact that you can only throw some JavaScript over the wall and have that affect the state of the widget. <rekado>the emacsy-based browser that janneke is working on will likely have a much more emacsy feel to it than the webkit widget in Emacs itself. *rekado is annoyed by rude people on the internet *rekado goes to bed in protest *nckx is a bit confused since they thought Minall was linked to that in some way but then I'm horrible with names. <nckx>Ugh, now I don't want to check my in-box. <nckx>Motivating volunteers on the Internet: how I do? <rvgn>nckx As you mentioned, the expression appear to be genuine. <rvgn>but the tone is really bad <rvgn>Fousing on those projects, they are intresting. *rvgn used to use iceweasel-uxp but not icedove-uxp *rvgn is planning to write package definitions for them with crossed fingers <nckx>Having a Thunderbird-alike in Guix would probably be popular amongst that most nebulous of terms, ‘new users’. <jonsger>nckx: I have somewhere a TB patch laying around but it didn't build back then... <nckx>I don't know how far the two have diverged but maybe rvgn should talk to jonsger then 🙂 *nckx is woefully—wait, no, blissfully ignorant. <kori>ive been uploading substitutes from ci.guix.gnu.org for a few minutes now!!! <nckx>kori: …sure. Unless you're really uploading, then something is horribly wrong 😊 <nckx>kori: You have to download binaries to install them. <kori>why did I type uploading *nckx was just being silly. <kori>it just showed the same message... over and over again <kori>with no progress indicators or anything <nckx>I ran ‘guix install -m <211 packages bruh>’ today and it took about 15 minutes of downloading. <nckx>kori: Hm. The ‘substitute: updating substitutes from 'https://ci.guix.gnu.org'... 100.0%’ message? If so, that's a known bug and I don't think it's fixed yet. <jonsger>rvgn: I won't work on some outdated Thunderbird fork <nckx>Oh… UXP is Furryfox… everything makes sense now. <nckx>That upstream is toxic to the extreme, I guess it rubs off on their users. <rvgn>jonsger What? It is actively developed and manager by hyperbola project. as far as i know. <nckx>jonsger: Sure, I understand. <jonsger>rvgn: compared to upstream Thunderbird it's not active :P <rvgn>jonsger It will not be. It is no longer based on TB upstream. <rvgn>jonsger what? why? It is like mate from gnome. <kori>sadly im going to have to do the sacrifice-my-soul-to-the-devil-in-order-to-get-internet-connection ritual <kori>but I kinda(?) figured out how to do it <kori>this question might get asked a lot <rvgn>jongser Like mate forked from gnome 2.x and no longer relies on gnome 3.x. Same way, icedove-uxp forked from TB 50.x and no longer relies on TB 60.x development. <kori>why does the installer assume I am using/want EFI? <kori>the bootloader just failed to install on account of, you know, /boot/efi not existing <nckx>kori: Does /sys/firmware/efi exist? <kori>im not sure, the installer kinda [expletive deleted] itself <nckx>Anyway: (define (efi-installation?) "Return #t if an EFI installation should be performed, #f otherwise." (file-exists? "/sys/firmware/efi")) <nckx>If it doesn't exist but the installer insist on EFI, well, that's… weird. <kori>/sys/firmware/efi exists <nckx>why does the installer assume I am using/want EFI? → because you are 😛 <nckx>Installing a non-UEFI GRUB probably wouldn't even boot. <kori>but the ISO couldn't even boot if I disabled <kori>i.e. if I forced legacy boot <nckx>So you want a non-UEFI system but installed from a ‘temporary’ UEFI-booted system? <kori>...I don't know what I want anymore <kori>I don't use anything UEFI specific <nckx>That might even work but I hope you understand it's out of the scope of the automated installer. <nckx>(OK, it's not *that* advanced, but still out of scope for a graphical installer.) <nckx>Hm. Would you be all right with just using EFI? <kori>I would be all right with not using EFI at all <ng0>uxp.. ha. with that toxic upstream of upstream. interesting interpretation of the future direction of thunderbird (rust) to call it "bloat", remove it and call it a day. I'm half-curious how this development is working out for them. <nckx>Sure, but then you have to file a bug report for the installer. <kori>nckx: im going to have to make my own custom installer soon <nckx>ng0: Thank you. So much. Exactly. <kori>due to certain... forbidden... software <kori>on account of not having corebooted my laptop and it not accepting my free wifi card <kori>when I do that it'll be useful to know how to not include anything efi-related <nckx>kori: I'm almost certain that simply not including EFI versions of things on the ISO won't solve a thing. The ISO already *has* a bootable (non-UEFI) MBR; the problem is that your PC won't boot it. <ng0>SeaMonkey is also an option, but idk how much you'd have to modify it for guix <nckx>So a MBR-only ISO (which isn't as simple as ‘don't include the grub-efi package’, probably not even related) still wouldn't boot. <nckx>kori: Firmware is full of dragons but I agree. I've never seen that personally. <rvgn>ng0 There is also iceape-uxp under hyperbola. Just found out. It is an alternative/fork of seamonkey <ng0>idk i don't depend on it being there or not as I use another system, just saying :) <kori>it kinda sucks that proprietary software exists <nckx>kori: I still suggest installing a UEFI system now (you can make your EFI system partition huge and turn it into swap later, or use gparted live to remove it later and grow your root), get a working Guix system, *then* switch to a non-UEFI grub, reconfigure, and see if your BIOS does boot the HDD. <kori>im gonna go to the CEO of proprietary software and give him a stern talking to <nckx>It won't be harder dan doing it from the installer. <kori>nckx: or i could just suck it up until i get coreboot cooking <kori>by the way im the author of Xlambda, not sure if you heard of that, and im really really excited to get guixsd working on my machine (if I can. I probably can) <nckx>kori: Sure. That is the better solution. But then you will not be using Guix today. <nckx>Compromises, compromises everywhere. <kori>nckx: hopefully I will!! <kori>installing with EFI and all the bells and whistles <kori>and just Ignoring that(tm) <nckx>kori: I hadn't, but now I have. <kori>i want to make my own sort of scheme oriented distro and i figured im going to share a lot of code with guix, going either way, so i thought it'd be interested that i get involved with the guix community <nckx>kori: I sort of understand your mistrust, but UEFI really doesn't add any spoopy insecurities, BIOS and UEFI are exactly as insecure (i.e. 100%). UEFI bloated? Sure. Don't ever take a look at BIOS code if you think it's better though. It just does less. It does it just as badly. <ng0>you might want to look at PantherX. reflecting back at what I tried, they definitely have the better approach to it <ng0>I mean look at -> look at how they approach it <kori>wowie I hadn't heard of this <nckx>ng0: Which thread are you talking in? <nckx>‘you might want to look at PantherX’ ‘found it thank’, unless you're both talking about the same thing, I doubt PantherX is doing great stuff in ISO boot land. <ng0>it was with reference to the "i want to create my own scheme based distro " etc <kori>"found it thank" @ pantherx <kori>updating substitutes from ci.guix.gnu.org......... <nckx>Hm, C-F ‘scheme’ doesn't show anything, I'm missing messages 😒 <nckx>*anything relevant. Anyway, never mind then. *nckx kicks their client. <kori>nckx: >i want to make my own sort of scheme oriented distro and i figured im going to share a lot of code with guix, going either way, so i thought it'd be interested that i get involved with the guix community, share ideas and whatnot, fun fun <nckx>kori: Thanks. I never saw that. Grrr. <kori>what ir cclient are you using <nckx>I don't really think it's my client, I just needed to kick something. Hexchat. <kori>hexchat will do that to you <kori>something's [expletive deleted] with your internet <nckx>kori: Thanks for making xlambda GPL, by the way. <kori>let's hope the bootloader install works! <kori>i hope it's available as a default option for GuixSD when its good enough <kori>planning a complete guile rewrite <kori>sometime in the near future <kori>that'll get you cookin with portals <nckx>I still need to try exwm, but this looks interesting too. I'll wait until ‘As there is currently no mouse support, Xlambda must be used with another window manager in order to be useful’ is fixed, though. <nckx>We put a WM in your WM so you can WM while you WM is just a bit much for me. I already run a WM in my WM, it's called emacs. <kori>been working kinda actively on that lately <kori>sadly ive been hit with the Depression so development took a bit of a hit <kori>"failed to get canonical path of `/boot/efi' <kori>what does this mean...................... <nckx>‘sadly…’: Ah. I've been there. Keep hanging on. <kori>im doing much better now <nckx>kori: Hm. Is a fat32-formatted EFI partition mounted at that location? <kori>nckx: ...I don't know, I just used the default encrypted option <nckx>(With all that implies: you are using GPT, the partition type is set to EFsomething in fdisk, …) <kori>i used the automatic option <nckx>I don't know enough about the installer to know it by heart. <nckx>The manual installation is really not difficult (I could do it, and I'd never seen Scheme…), it just takes time and a willingness to R the FM. <kori>ill try manual partitioning <ng0>I'm suspicious about the fact that my code in the testsuite throws no errors. there's still one branch missing, but I guess it wasn't that bad afterall oO *nckx is installing Guix System at this very moment, in fact. *rvgn wish pantherx developers could have invested in improving guix for the features they forseed. <nckx>The only thing I know about pantherx was a very recent mail from a (developer?) @pantherx address asking, basically, how Guix works. So that was a bit weird. <ng0>not really, I think not knowing everything and asking because you want clarification is a good sign <nckx>Not knowing how to install Guix when you're part of a team developing Ubuntu-for-Guix? I'm not convinced, but OK. <ng0>i don't follow the list that much anymore <rvgn>kori Yeah, I am tired of seeing new projects instead of improving exsisting one. <rvgn>Inefficient use of time and labour <kori>I sort of want to make Guix's little brother <nckx>ng0: No, your point in general is fair. I just got a slightly-too-basic vibe in this case. <ng0>(iefficient labor... because this is a really well run and profitable business) <nckx>I'd mainly hoped they'd progressed much further than that implied. <kori>I'm less worried about inefficient use of time and labor <nckx>Are they that well-funded? <kori>projects that die within the first few months <ng0>you didn't get my sarcasm <kori>without a very lively community, it's likely you won't last long <nckx>Oh. No, since I really don't know anything about this outfit. <ng0>I don't like it when unpaid volunteers work is matched with for-profit ones and the same expectations. the comparison doesn't work *rvgn pantherx devs could have worked on making gnome-software a front-end for guix. <nckx>Maybe they got a billion dollars on gofundyourself I don't know 🤷 *rvgn and script for auo-management of system config. <rvgn>That makes guix closer to pantherx <nckx>Why is the pricing an image. <ng0>maybe ask them. the one developer I was in contact with was okay <ng0>they do have a pretty website though, so they have at least 2 people who know how to do PR :) <nckx>I'm going to assume it's some weird side effect of their Web design (every ‘block’ is an image), and not an attempt to thwart indexing, but it's dodgy if you're not used to marketing. <ng0>the size detection hurts a bit <ng0>i have to zoom in a lot <nckx>Oh, there you are in their Masto stream. <nckx>I'm really behind on this whole PantherX thing… <ng0>at least they have money to be incorporated (the hardware selling side at least (Panther MVP), no idea how much that costs in ireland. I'm just assuming that they didn't step into this empty handed. <ng0>via kickstarter.. or canceled? idk.. <ng0>interesting what oyu find with minimal search. so it's pretty cool the went from plans for Android to Guix <ng0>this started at least back in 2016 <nckx>(I don't want to be cynical, it's just that it's hosted by a mock-up company, so it doesn't imply the existence of a single line of code.) *ng0 still waiting for their testsuite to pass x.x <ng0>what am I looking at? <nckx>A pure mock-up of their management back-end. <ng0>ay... testsuite passed. <nckx>So a Web interface to guix deploy (avant la lettre). [If it… etc.] *rvgn finds nckx's conversation with guixuser amusing <nckx>rvgn: ‘Work for me’ ‘OK how much’ ‘Haha what’. <nckx>I'm willing to do it for a fair price. For fun? Fuck no. *rvgn thinks nckx could start a side buisness xD <nckx>If you want to play boss, do it properly. 🙂 <nckx>rvgn: I'd be rich, I tell ya, rich! <nckx>‘Hi want your favourite ‘app’ packaged in a pretty obscure Scheme distro?’ <nckx>‘Who are you and how did you get into my house.’ <rvgn>nckx Oh wait! Looks like there is an apology letter? *rvgn is confused of guixuser's state of mind. Thinking they could have bipolar. <nckx>Yas, I read it (my ‘huh’ was my reaction). <nckx>If it's genuine, then I'm happy they learned something that will be of value of them in future (‘don't tick all the troll boxes, bud’), but I'm not inclined to respond. *nckx plays Xonotic while Icecat compiles. Guix has all the software. <rvgn>nckx Does mozilla firefox and gnu icecat has chromium based codes in them? <rvgn>*recent versions, mostly greater than 60.x <rvgn>nckx Ah, that's the main concern why hyperbola started iceweasel-uxp. it appears so. Are there any serious threats because of chromium code-base? <nckx>I'm not familiar enough with the Icecat codebase to say exactly how it's integrated. <nckx>But take for example: grep -ri 'Chromium authors' | wc -l → 1395 <rvgn>nckx security and privacy issues <nckx>Unlikely to be more problematic than an understaffed Firefox fork, but I'd have to analyse 1395 files to answer that. <nckx>I have serious reservations about Chromium, but their code isn't infected with badness just because it's a problematic project. *nckx goes back to poking new Guix systems. *rvgn wishes nckx good luck for their poking <nckx>rvgn: I was talking mainly about UXP (which I'm quite familiar with); I don't know much about the Hyperbola side. But note that the meat is in UXP: rendering engine, JS engine, it's not just a UI library. It's basically the browser. But if the Hyperbola team is helping to maintain it, all the better. <kori>i feel like guix *might* be downloading too many packages <vagrantc>have you successfully used substitutes before? <nckx>Currently staring at ‘building xcb…’ on a headless server with only %base-packages, I can commiserate. OTOH, people tend to underestimate the dependency graphs of the software they use anyway. <kori>no.................................................................. <kori>its pulling stuff like... pulseaudio? and I didn't define that anywhere <kori>i dont know how big %desktop-services actually lis <nckx>kori: I think any ‘mainstream’ distro includes Pulse. %desktop-services is GNOME + packages considered useful, i.e. pretty flippin' huge. <nckx>Whoa. *DOES NOT include pulse. <kori>lightweight-desktop thing? <kori>/etc/configuration/lightweight-desktop <nckx>Welcome to modern desktop Linux. Although yes, we do tend to err on the side of functionality over size, that is true. <dustyweb>finally, I know why Guix is pronounced "geeks", thanks emacsomancer ;) <kori>nckx: i thought lightweight-desktop was like <kori>only supposed to include barebones X <kori>(I was gonna clone Xlambda and use that) <vagrantc>kori: you have to remove gdm from %desktop-services in order for it to not build significant parts of gnome *vagrantc doesn't have a config handy, but hopefully someone else can <nckx>I don't use any of the %things so I'm going to have to look it up, but I thought lw-d.tmpl was still pretty ‘just works’ i.e. huge. <vagrantc>and replace it with sddm or slim or something *vagrantc is not guile-savvy enough to wing it <kori>im gonna do %base-services% for a start <vagrantc>but basically, you edit the config.scm and remove things from %desktop-services <jwgarber>howdy everyone. I have a fresh install of guix here, and the 'clear' command doesn't work in the terminal <kori>expanding %desktop-services in-editor would be cool :) <nckx>pulse for example is pulled in by ‘pulseaudio?’ (default #t) of alsa-service-type, which is then part of %desktop-services. <nckx>Yes, it's not exactly trivial to do if you're new to Scheme. <nckx>jwgarber: Have you installed it with ‘guix install ncurses’? <jwgarber>nckx: derp, I didn't know that needed a package <nckx>jwgarber: You don't: ^L ;-) <nckx>Unless you use ‘clear’ in scripts, it's not actually that useful unless you like to practice your typing every time you want to clear the screen. <kori>oh my god you guys we installed the bootloader!! <nckx>I installed ncurses for the ‘reset’ command, didn't even realise it provides clear as well. <nckx>kori: We prefer s/guys/Guix/, to preserve some semblance of diversity, even though we're severely lacking in that department. *nckx meanwhile is still building xcb on a headless ARM box 😒 <kori>nckx: fair! I default to using they pronouns anyway <nckx>(Or -l if that's your thing I guess.) <kori>im more of an eggselendt guy <jwgarber>one more question. I'm trying to add a custom menu-entry, and need to add the initrd. Is there a way of specifying the "default" one I already have on my system? <nckx>My headless server is now building guile-wm. Something's rotten in the state of my box. <nckx>jwgarber: I'm almost certain the answer is yes (it certainly *should* be possible), I just have no idea how to write it. So, ehm, take it as encouragement? 😛 <jwgarber>nckx: hah, thanks :D what I'm really trying to do is add a custom kernel option, but don't see a way of doing that for the default entry <nckx>Your o-s declaration has an initrd field, you might be able to refer to it (or its default value base-initrd directly). It's a procedure but what it produces, I do not know. Maybe a gexp. Maybe not. <nckx>jwgarber: Custom kernel option? <jwgarber>nckx: command line parameter, like things that go in the linux-arguments list <nckx>(kernel-arguments (list …))? <nckx>Does that cover your case? <nckx>Or do you want to create custom extra ‘Guix (with foo options)’ menu entries or summit… <jwgarber>nckx: gah! yes it's right there, I missed reading it in the docs <nckx>You're very welcome. I'm glad I could save you from the custom-initrd wrong turn… <nckx>Well, not custom, you know what I mean. <kori>(and through the magic of dhclient, we have internet connection!) <kori>and this is me talking via ssh! <kori>now.............................. <kori>I need to build a custom kernel <nckx>(I'm not wild about the current interface but it works.) <jwgarber>so after modifying the config file, I run guix system reconfigure /etc/config.scm right? <nckx>jwgarber: With sudo, yep. <jwgarber>should I do 'sudo guix pull' first too then? at least that's what the warning is telling me <kori>I don't like how there's like <kori>it's (append) on everywhere but users <nckx>jwgarber: Is it really? sudo on Guix System should use !env_reset (the equivalent of ‘sudo -E’) so ‘sudo guix’ invokes your user's guix, not root's. <kori>wow thats a tongue twister <nckx>jwgarber: So it should be just ‘guix pull’, not ‘sudo guix pull’. <kori>say users uses cons 5 times real fast <nckx>Unless something is weird. <kori>and tear out linux-libre <nckx>kori: Well, without seeing the actual configuration file, I'm guessing cons is the most appropriate to use there. We could use (append (list atom) %rest) everywhere to appear newbie-friendly, but it's not actually great code from a Scheme perspective. <nckx>kori: linux-libre isn't part of %base-packages. <jwgarber>nckx: oh yeah, there's no sudo (funny though, I thought I had already run guix pull ...) <nckx>(That said, I think we did switch some cons[*]es to append for exactly that reason.) <kori>nckx: I assume you're a dev? <nckx>kori: You'd add (kernel my-kustom-kernel) to your (operating-system …) <kori>i need to look at the documentation <kori>i have tons of basic questions <kori>that probably are answered ther <nckx>kori: It's certainly much appreciated to have read (and really read, at least the relevant parts) the docs before asking questions. You'll ask better questions and we can give better answers that use the right terminology (and Guix has some subtleties, like ‘why is my kernel not part of system-packages?’, that can only be explained if you speak the same language). <kori>the documentation's format is kinda <nckx>eric23: …a string that doesn't occur in the Guix source code? <kori>not exactly my cuppa tea <kori>but the information is there <kori>GNU's documentation format is weird!!!!!!! <nckx>Even an old-school PDF manual you can print out and study by candle light. <nckx>So when the apocalypse comes, you can re-read it and remember what computers used to look like. <kori>i actually meant the html documentation lol <nckx>Welp. The HTML is about as hip & cool as we get. <nckx>…oaky, now I want a single malt… <apteryx>could someone explain to me what are the /gnu/store/.links/* ? <kori>nckx: well, i guess this isnt too bad to ask <kori>anywhere you can point me re: how to make custom packages? (i.e. a custom kernel package) <nckx>apteryx: They are hard links to the ‘real’ files in /gnu/store with identical content, for use with Guix's built-in deduplication (inherited from Nix). It's content-addressed storage, kinda. <kori>Question: does Guix have Nix as a dependency? <kori>or is guix a complete rewrite? <nckx>We still use (an old fork of) the C++ Nix daemon. All the rest is Guile Scheme. <nckx>‘Eventually’ the daemon will be rewritten in Scheme. It's already diverged from Nix for use with Guix. <nckx>kori: That blog post above is the only one I know of that deals with custom kernels specifically, there's also a ‘packaging tutorial’ on the same blog that looks good (hard to tell if you already know) but probably less relevant to the kernel. <kori>you already told me the kernel is not a package <kori>why am i thinking of packages? <nckx>kori: No no, it is a package. <nckx>I said it wasn't in %base-packages, or in system-packages. <nckx>I just mean that one blog post is specific to your current goal, the other more general, I don't know which suits you best. <nckx>I admit that I haven't actually read Efraim's kernel post. *nckx …bootloader successfully installed on '/boot/efi' \o/ <kori>nobody has packaged Xlambda yet <eric23>aren't services related to shepherd relevant to here nckx ? *nckx looks up from server, easily confused and lost without context. Whut? <nckx>eric23: I'm really drawing a blank, sorry. Relevant to? <eric23>I asked before what is term-auto and you response was not in the source code of guix <nckx>I didn't recognise it when you asked, so I thought I'd grep the codes, but found nothing. <nckx>It wasn't a snarky way to say ‘off topic’. I really don't recognise that string. <nckx>I'm not familiar with shepherd so it didn't occur to me. <nckx>This is absolutely the right place 🙂 <eric23>when I did a guix system reconfigure config.scm , shepherd says term-auto was not started. <nckx>(Just not the right time, I think all the Shepherd people have normal biorithms and are asleep.) <nckx>Hm, no, that really sounds like it should be a Guix term. <nckx>Ah, OK, it's (symbol-append 'term- (string->symbol tty)), no wonder my naive search didn't find anything. <nckx>…and of course none of my systems have it… <kori>hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm <kori>i havent found anything on local channels yet <kori>i.e. not pulling from a remote url <nckx>kori: (url "file:///home/nckx/nckx-chan") ? <eric23>So you guys don't have a file like /gnu/store/4p4aknfshkfylgsbr3gs905mgb1fjp4d-shepherd-term-auto.scm <nckx>With the caveat that it is treated as a git repository, literally: if you have uncommitted changes, Guix will not see them. <kori>im gonna use GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH for now <nckx>It's not that bad, just don't forget to commit and wonder why your changes aren't taking effect 🙂 <nckx>eric23: I don't, since I don't use %defaults anywhere. I tried to start a VM but Guix insists on building the kernel first ☹ <kori>im interested in where GuixOps(tm) is headed <nckx>Ah, wait, maybe on the ARM box I just installed and haven't had the time to Customise™ yet… <nckx>eric23: I've actually always wondered about that service (when I saw the code; I didn't know it's Shepherd name until now). You should ask lfam here what it's supposed to do and why it seems to fail on every system. I can't really make time now. <nckx>Sun's coming up; time for bed. o/ <jas4711>hi! any sysadmin's around? i'd like to upgrade guix.sjd.se and x15.sjd.se if anyone has time to assist <mbakke>jas4711: what do you need assistance with? :) <civodul>for x15.sjd.se, we'd need to temporary remove it from /etc/guix/machines.scm on berlin <civodul>something that mbakke, rekado_, or myself can do <civodul>guix.sjd.se is actually unused since we've turned off hydra.gnu.org a couple of weeks ago <apteryx>any way to retrofit a MBR above LUKS? :-/ <apteryx>I forgot... eh. After shuffling gigs of data onto my new system SSD <jas4711>civodul: could i just destroy guix.sjd.se? <jas4711>civodul: for x15.sjd.se, i have another x15 board laying around so we could get that up and running before disabling the old one <jas4711>civodul: i had an idea to run guix directly on it, but i'm not sure i have time to experiment with that. <jas4711>mbakke: i need assistance to get the new machines (guix/x15-replacements) setup into the guix infrastrcture. i'm happy to leave a newly installed debian machine up'n'running and give ssh root access to it for you to maintain it further. <nckx>civodul: I gave up on installing Guix System ‘over’ the OverDrive OS. It kept corrupting the DB. I bought a big USB drive, installed an arm64 distribution on it, then installed Guix System properly. It *seems* to have worked. It's been running ‘guix pull’ (from 1.0.0) for the past 2 days. It's now building gcc (yes, substitutes are authorised). <jas4711>maybe only the x15 is relevant any more? i'm happy to install a new x15 board and give you access to build stuff on it <nckx>The other, weirder, issues I had were due to a loose CPU fan connector, I think. I hope. <Tirifto>Anyone experienced the error ‘No GSettings schemas are installed on the system’ while using Guix? Apparently it shows up when programs are started from a shell where I tried to extend $XDG_DATA_DIRS with Guix directories… <pkill9_>Tirifto: the schemas need to be in either the user profile or the system profile <Tirifto>pkill9_: I'm not even really sure what they are and how can I check where they are. ^_^' <pkill9_>they appear to be in <prefix>/share/glib-2.0/schemas <pkill9_>i don't really know what they are either <pkill9_>they just contain some instructions on how to handle something in something gnome-related <civodul>nckx: cool! we can probably already put it to good use, then! <civodul>nckx: could you send an update to guix-sysadmin? <civodul>jas4711: the x15 is definitely relevant; guix.sjd.se is probably no longer relevant <Tirifto>pkill9_: Aha! My /usr/share… has them for pretty much everything, and my ~/.guix_profile/share… has only a single link called ‘gschema.dtd’. <manzerbredes>Hi! I was wondering if there is a way to embed in a package definition which guix commit should be used to build the package ? <pkill9_>manzerbredes: i don't think so, i would just add a comment saying it <iyzsong>civodul: re #36623, I have add a "python-gdal" package to build it seperately :-) <civodul>iyzsong: cool, could you provide ArneBab some advice, then? <manzerbredes>pkill9_:thank you, meaning: if I want to have a full raproducible package, I have to give its package definition along with the right channel (that contains the guix right guix commit) to use ? <iyzsong>well, got "Network error on destination MXs" :( <Tirifto>Interesting observation: when running ‘echo $XDG_DATA_DIRS’ from GNOME, the variable is empty… but in Englihtenment, it contains the data dirs you'd expect! That could be why GNOME alone crashes when I try to extend $XDG_DATA_DIRS. <Tirifto>My guess it that at some level, $XDG_DATA_DIRS is empty in GNOME, so when I try to extend it, I'm really just extending and empty string, so $XDG_DATA_DIRS become only the Guix data dirs. But GNOME needs to have the variable defined somewhere higher up, otherwise it wouldn't mind overriding. I have no idea how to access that, though. :/ <Tirifto>I guess I should bring this to a mailing list of Guix, or Parabola, or GNOME Shell… or maybe all of them? :P I'm not sure where to look first… <bandali>anyone know if mhw hangs around here? <bandali>also, has anyone looked into packaging trisquel’s abrowser? <quiliro>\o Tirifto ... Mi pensas ke la listo estas la plej bone ... kaj menciu tie ankaŭ viajn progresojn aŭ kaj viajn problemojn ;-) <quiliro>Mi ne povas uzi Apertium-on...La lingvoj ne ekzistas! <Tirifto>quiliro: Mi malcertumas pri lingvoj en Guix ĝenerale, sed nun mi spertas pli fundamentajn problemojn. xP <jas4711>mbakke: do you think guix.sjd.se is still relevant? would you miss it if i killed it? <wdkrnls`>Hello - I am new to guix and am getting lost with understanding how applications in guix are customized. For example: right now I'm trying to figure out how to customize emacs. Unlike other distros, I can't seem to just plop stuff into my .emacs.d/init.el. This sounds fine to me, since I grok that this is not automatically reproducible path to application customization, but I'm unclear as to what I should actually be doing. <rvgn>bandali Abrowser is technically softcore version of icecat?? <erudition>Kinda, yeah. Wish they would just merge and focus on ice at though. <rvgn>erudition Yeah, same thought. <bandali>rvgn, yeah something like that. it’s also nice it’s non-ESR and based on regular upstream firefox releases <bandali>i’m pondering whether i should try to package abrowser, or contribute a non-ESR icecat to gnuzilla and then package that <rvgn>bandali the latter will be wise. <bandali>hmm… yeah i was talking to the gnuzilla maintainer, and he was saying he personally doesn’t have enough time to maintain a non-ESR icecat <bandali>and that it wouldn’t make much sense to include abrowser itself in gnuzilla since the two projects have somewhat different purposes <rvgn>bandali Just a thought. I am not sure how much difference there is between ESR and non-ESR. But GNUzilla lacks Thunderbird-based mail client. May be that's worth pondering? <bandali>i mean, the main issue with maintaining a non-ESR is that it changes quite frequently, especially those APIs that icecat would use e.g. for its custom about:home <rvgn>GNUzilla=Icecat+Icesnake <bandali>re a gnuzilla thunderbird, i personally wouldn’t get much value out of it, as i’m perfectly happy with my emacs-based mail setup. though perhaps users would appreciate it <rvgn>bandali In that case, it seems its better to maintain ESR <rvgn>Yeah users will apreciate it. <bandali>rvgn, yeah, that’s the baseline :) but ideally i’d still have a non-ESR firefox derivative <bandali>it seems like there’s no thunderbird package in guix ha? does it have any freedom problems like firefox? <rvgn>erudition icecat (gnu version of iceweasel) and icesnake (gnu version of icedove). The latter is prospective idea. <erudition>But Trisquel has Icecat and Icedove... Now I'm confused, so much fragmentation <erudition>I've never seen Iceweasel but I thought that was only in debian <erudition>Well Trisquel picked the better named of the bunch, anyhow <rvgn>erudition What I meant was currently GNUzilla Suite has only browser (icecat). I suggested bandali could try creating a mail-client (ideally named icesnake; as a part of GNUzilla Suite. The, GNUzilla = icecat (browser) + icesnake (mail-client). <bandali>Yeah iceweasel is a whole bunch of different things :p e.g. in Parabola, iceweasel is something akin to Trisquel’s abrowser: based on regular firefox and less strict that icecat <rvgn>Icedove cannot be directly combined to GNUzilla as theres should freedom, security and privacy enhancements and may require different name for the package. <erudition>I understand now, but ugh more fragmentation, plus Icedove has enough issues from its conversion, an even stricter one would be so much effort for so little userbase (remember thunderbird was abandoned by Mozilla some time ago) <erudition>I jumped ship when I realized Icedove wasn't ever going to catch up with the UI of Firefox even though it's been years <rvgn>erudition bandali In that case, would it be better to merge Icedove as it is with GNUzilla project? I wish someone could do that. <rvgn>Tirifto Just came in the head. :P <rvgn>Tirifto I was thinking about worms and snakes being pery for birds. <erudition>Oh jeez. Guess free software's branding problem really is self-inflicted lol. <kori>firefox and thunderbird use different elements! *rvgn will be changing their nick soon <kori>(it has to use wide characters for the branding, to attract the zoomer audience) <kori>ill contribute branding if it's called vaporsnake <kori>im a semi-competent designer <erudition>But it's software, so how about "VAPORWARESNAKE" <kori>erudition: no but it's a state of water :) <kori>icecat's already a thing! <kori>waterfox is already a thing! <erudition>Water, wind, fire, earth... Yeah they used up the good ones <kori>if we were going with the anti theme <kori>i thought since rubber doesnt conduct electricity "rubbersnake" would be interesting but then i realized thats just a euphemism for a certain kind of commodity <kori>dropped the idea as fast as I came up with it <kori>can't be too on the nose <kori>we already have GIMP causing trouble <erudition>They said that about the iPad too... Then everyone forgot <kori>although it would be confusing <rvgn>kori For GIMP, the problem could be solved by putting an hyphen. G-IMP (GNU Image Manipulation Program) pronounced as Gee-IMP. <kori>to see a gnu and an imp side by side <kori>debian/kfreebsd already does that iirc <kori>rvgn: or just call it GNU Imp! <Tirifto>Thunder's really just the sound, isn't it? <rvgn>kori that isactually better <kori>also an euphemism for a certain kind of commodity <kori>we should be dropping the snake altogether <kori>too many ways that can go wrong <kori>#guix - names for software that might never exist <erudition>Oo pretty sure there's a Pokémon like that. But trademark issues maybe <bandali>rvgn, for a sec i thought bored is your new nick you said you were gonna change to ;) <rvgn>Wait a second! Is someone actually willing to bring icedove to gnuzilla? Then why these name pondering? <kori>just call it LightningSnail (i.e. snailmail) and be done with it <kori>and have the logo be a snail with glasses on and a a lightning bolt painted on its shell <Tirifto>It has to be holding an envelope though. *rvgn is thinking of Pickachu for some reason xD <kori>LightningRat would for sure get us sued <rvgn>Is someone actually willing to bring icedove to gnuzilla? Then why these name pondering? <kori>anyway back to compiling my kernel <kori>or was it just non-esr icecat <rvgn>kori Ah I see. I might have missed the conversation. <kori>bandali asked why thunderbird in guix <kori>why no* thunderbird in guix <kori>you were there! you talked to him! *rvgn feels like back to square one <Tirifto>By the way, putting something like ‘export XDG_DATA_DIRS=$XDG_DATA_DIRS’ in my ~/.profile or somesuch should be perfectly safe, right? <erudition>There are few good options for desktop mail clients. I guess because most people are using webmail. All the polished ones have freedom issues. <bandali>before my emacs days, i used to use thunderbird myself <bandali>but some time in 2014-15 when i seriously started getting into emacs i also set up mu4e for myself, it was pretty great <bandali>then tried notmuch and it was even faster and better, and ended up using that for a few years <bandali>then a few months ago i “graduated” to gnus :p it’s wonderful <bandali>highly recommend people try it, esp. emacs users <bandali>but of course that doesn’t mean we needn’t have thunderbid/icedove in guix <bandali>i think someone on #guix-devel just posted about trying to package it actually! <rvgn>erudition Good options for GUI as well? I am stuck with evolution for now. <tchrzcz>When running "guix system init /mnt/etc/config.scm /mnt", I get "/mnt/etc/config.scm:70:37: missing closing parenthesis" <tchrzcz>If I add an extra parentheses at the end, it says "error: invalid Field specifier". <erudition>rvgn: yes I was referring to GUI desktop mail clients <rvgn>erudition I cannot think of anything better than TB. I tried claws-mail and had some issues, which I reported as bug today. Anyway it's interface is not good. <bandali>evolution wasn’t too bad either when i last tried a few years ago <rvgn>bandali Yeah, evolution comes little closer to TB, but not there yet. Not every extensible. <nckx>rvgn: Claws mail is special. I used it for a year or two, I liked it then, but I wouldn't now. <nckx>rvgn: I've responded to your mail. Basically, I think these should remain optional (they are options, after all, not enabled by default if I read your mail correctly), but the messages are needlessy vague. <rvgn>nckx I will look into it. Thanks! Yes, they are optional. But if enabled, they are not working. <kori>i use claws mail from time to time <nckx>Right, but I think it's reasonable to say: ‘If you enable ☑ Use GPG for encryption, you need to install GPG yourself’. <nckx>But Claws is being ‘friendly’ (for once) and not mentioning that SCARY TECHNICAL PACKAGE NAME. <nckx>USE flags are overblown 😛 <kori>they're okay, i like them <kori>could maybe be better though <nckx>This would be a poor use(heh)-case anyway, since it would rebuild the claws *package* just to bring gnupg into your *profile*. Feels very wrong. <nckx>It's been ages since my Gentoo years, maybe they are. They basically painted themselves into a corner so I doubt it, but who knows. <kori>im looking forward to getting more involved with guix nonetheless :D <kori>it's where all the os-related scheme is happening! <nckx>rvgn: Oh, don't feel obliged to agree, it is indeed a trade-off. ‘Always work no matter what optional features the user enables’ vs. ‘don't bloat the hell out of things’. There's no one true choice. <rvgn>nckx But wouldn't be better if claws-mail package comes with gpg, so that users can on/off the feature without needing install/remove another package? <nckx>rvgn: By that exact logic we need to add all dictionary languages to claws. <rvgn>nckx Would that be possible? <nckx>It would not be acceptable. <nckx>If my dishwasher were a test suite, it would be failing. <rvgn>nckx how about claws-mail, claws-mail-encryption and claws-mail-dictionary packages?? User can install all or selectively by choice. Just like gajim and gajim-omemo packages. *rvgn has no idea what flags are xD <kori>rvgn: gentoo lets you do things like <nckx>kori: We're well aware of use flags. 🙂 <nckx>rvgn: ‘USE-flags’ are a Gentoo thing, not ‘use flags, my boy.’ <kori>USE="gpg i18n" emerge claws-mail, which lets you install claws with those two features, rather than, you know, having a bunch of packages <kori>nckx: oh, I know, rvgn doesn't seem to be aware though <nckx>Use-flags are like optional dependencies done wrong, in this case. <rvgn>nckx how about segreating optional packages I mentioned above> <nckx>Since they wouldn't affect the build, just the dependency graph. Gentoo is stuck with ‘everything has to be forced into the flag model’, we could probably do better. <rvgn>how about claws-mail, claws-mail-encryption and claws-mail-dictionary packages?? User can install all or selectively by choice. Just like gajim and gajim-omemo packages. <rvgn>nckx Sorry, I thought you missed <nckx>What does this solve, exactly? I type ‘guix install claws-mail-encryption-and-all-dictionaries’ (or add it to my manifest) instead of ‘guix install claws-mail gnupg aspell-dict-en’? <nckx>The second is composable and intuitive, the first is not. <kori>nckx: USE flags are an ersatz for what I think could happen <kori>im talking too much though <kori>I still need to grok guix completely <kori>what the [expletive deleted] I'm actually doing <user_oreloznog>Hi, I have generated a manifest.scm and it seems to work :) Indeed, the following command has installed, updated, compiled and build it with success: <user_oreloznog>Thereafter, the simple reconfiguration of /etc/config.scm will it be sufficient? <nckx>kori: I understand, but ‘use flags’ seem to be some kind of everything-to-everyone meme. Once one start asking questions, people just keep repeating ‘use flags’. <nckx>(kori: not talking about you.) <wdkrnls`>Can someone explain to me why this command only returns vpnc: guix search '^.*vpn.*$' *kori imagines a cult chanting "use flags" <nckx>For example, what rvgn suggest above is just a plain old metapackage, I don't think those provide real value, but the use-flags cult wouldn't even know the difference. <wdkrnls`>So, I'm confused by why the regular expression doesn't capture both. <rvgn>wdkrnls` You will have to do `guix search [...] | less`, I think. <nckx>wdkrnls`: It does: guix search '^.*vpn.*$' | grep 'name: openvpn' → name: openvpn <nckx>wdkrnls`: Did you get a ‘hint’ as the last line? <nckx>(I… might have overreacted about how much I dislike that hint here before so I won't rant again 🙂) <nckx>kori: I threw that link above at your face just in case you're interested in how Guix *might* approach this, eventually. It doesn't seem to be a priority at the mo'. <kori>nckx: thats fine! thanks <kori>i'd like to work on this <wdkrnls`>nckx: yeah, I saw the hint but it didn't communicate to me in the Shannon sense. It's not an obvious behavior to me that it wouldn't just print all results interactively. Then, if that were too much and I wasn't just running this command in emacs I might be tempted to use less. <wdkrnls`>okay, that makes enough sense. thanks everyone. <wdkrnls`>I'm just going to guix search 'whatever' | cat from now on. <nckx>wdkrnls`: You're preaching to the choir. *nckx uses a bash function to do that but with less. ***ng0 is now known as nikita
***nikita is now known as ng0
<mantlepro>I'd like to create a shepherd service for an application to start at boot. I've read the docs at the usual places (https://guix.gnu.org/) but still trying to grasp shepherd's equivalent of a systemd unit file. Any hints? <mantlepro>Where do all the other service files live for example? It would be beneficial to see openssh's or apache's definition <Tirifto>So I got the $XDG_DATA_DIRS thing working and will write an e-mail on that tomorrow. <Tirifto>Also, how is language for software installed via Guix determined? My Icecat (from Guix) is in English and my Aegisub (from Guix) is in Czech, but my system locale (on GNOME, Parabola) is set to Esperanto. :/ <nckx>Tirifto: The standard way ($LANG, $LC_* etc.). The Czech is just weird. <Tirifto>nckx: My system locale was probably Czech when I installeg Aegisub; is it meant to stick? <nckx>Tirifto: Aegisub probably saved it as a ‘programme preference’ somewhere instead of getting it from the environment as is expected on Unix, yes. <nckx>Tirifto: IceCat localisation is broken in the Guix package. It only ships with English. <nckx>I noticed this a few days ago and tried to fix it myself, so haven't reported a bug yet, but I haven't managed so far. <nckx>Tirifto: Does other Guix software detect the proper locale? I noticed that Esperanto translations are very incomplete (ls --help has no translations; nano speaks it fluently), but ‘eo’ should work when translations are available. <Tirifto>Good luck with that, nckx! I'd join your efforts, but I've yet to study my way to that part of Guix. <nckx>And I've yet to study the arcane mysteries of the IceCat build system. <Tirifto>Well, Guix itself utters some Esperanto here and there. Not sure about software therein… <nckx>Tirifto: Then it's ‘working’, we just need more volunteer translators 🙂 <nckx>(We = Free software in general, Guix itself is quite all right considering the size of it.) <nckx>(If someone who knows more about IceCat disagrees with my ‘l10n files are never installed’ diagnosis, please let me know, my fool-proof approach was to grep it for hanzi… 😒) <nckx>There are a few but not enough. <nckx>Tirifto: With the TP? Great! <kori>i installed a kernel in my own profile <kori>rather than the system profile <nckx>kori: Neither of them will work. ‘Installing’ a package just plonks its files into a profile; they are inert. They don't do anything. (You can invoke executables because $PATH points to those otherwise inert files in …/bin, but that's different.) <nckx>kori: You need to tell Guix ‘use this kernel to boot my sysbox’. <nckx>You can do this by adding (kernel my-kernel-package) to your operating-system declaration. <nckx>I mentioned this yesterday but it's a lot to take in at first 🙂 <nckx>You don't need to ‘install’ it (either in system-packages or your user profile) at all. <kori>i did add (kernel my-linux) to operating-systems <kori>but.............. how do I define my-linux? <kori>so guix knows where to look? <nckx>I thought you were building the kernel earlier today? <nckx>kori: Well, you mentioned using GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH yesterday, which is fine, but I've never used it so can't help you there. <Tirifto>nckx: If you mean TranslationProject.(org?net?), then no. :P As far as organisations go, I'm just involved with GNOME. But I've helped at a few individual software pieces, too. <kori>nckx: guix complains my-kernel doesn't exist, and it mention i might have forgotten to include a module <kori>but then it mentioned the module doesn't exist <kori>not sure where to look in the documentation <nckx>Yeah, that's where I can't help you since I never bothered learning how G_P_P works. 😛 Does it make modules visible? Then you can just use-module (my kernel) in your system .scm. Otherwise: 🤷. <nckx>Working and not breaking are the same thing, right? —Unix. <nckx>s/breaking/printing errors/ <kori>it seems to have worked... <kori>im doing the full build now <kori>i.e. $ guix system reconfigure <nckx>So I believed whoever assured me that ‘langpacks have been built-in to Firefox for a long time now’. They're not. 😒 <nckx>I still don't understand how Gnuzilla releases work (our icecat is 60.8.0, there's no such directory) but that looks promising. *nckx reflects on trusting trust. <Tirifto>nckx: As far as I know, Icecat is officially a distro-independent project whose maintainers make a release whenever they get around to it, which is not too often. I think Guix was initially backporting new patches to its own Icecat release (to ensure the only packaged modern browser would stay secure), and eventually shifted to keeping up with upstream Firefox releases on its own, probably working off the same code as the official GNUzilla Icecat proje <Tirifto>(distro-independent → package-manager-independent ? :P) <Tirifto>I might be wrong about the history on the Guix side of things, though. Only ever took glances. <nckx>So Guix Icecat ≠ GNU IceCat, but a friendly fork that's in this case ahead? <nckx>I know nothing about anything. *nckx continues fruitlessly plonking zh_CN.xpi into random directories to illustrate this fact. <Tirifto>Yeah, I think it's something like that. And there has been talk about unifying all those separate projects to liberate Firefox, but I don't know how that's going. :P <wdkrnls`>So: just tried configuring GNOME evolution: I got to the last step and then got the error: "The name org.gnome.evolution.dataserver.Sources5 was not provided by any .service files". That doesn't sound good. <rekado_>wdkrnls`: you probably need to install the evolution-data-server package globally <wdkrnls`>thanks (goes and reads how to install packages globally...) <nckx>wdkrnls`: No, root isn't special in Guix. <nckx>(As in, their packages aren't available to other users; obviously they are still root ;-) <rvgn>wdkrnls' Not as root. Global packages are declared under "packages" section of system configuration (config.scm). <nckx>☝ if you are using Guix System. <wdkrnls`>so you are saying to cons it to the list of services <nckx>wdkrnls`: No, to add it to the list of ‘system-packages’. <emacsomancer>in Guix System, installing `aspell-dict-en` as a global package and installing it manually as user seemed to result in different behaviour <emacsomancer>the former didn't place files in ~/.guix-profile where other components seemed to expect them <nckx>Maybe those other components only support a single search directory, not a path. Maybe it's just an oversight. <emacsomancer>what's the systematic way of specifying user-level packages, since the global configuration in config.scm seems to behave differently in some cases? <nckx>guix package -m ~/.config/guix/manifest.scm == guix system reconfigure, for user packages. *nckx cries tears of joy at their new Chinese-speaking IceCat, finally \o/ *nckx cries regular tears at the state of IceCat localisation. <emacsomancer>what do other people's division of labour between global and local/manifest package specification look like? on regular single-user laptops, for example? *Tirifto hands nckx a bag of confetti. <nckx>emacsomancer: My system-packages was once based on %base-packages (with things I don't use removed), it also contains emacs and ncurses (clear, reset) for probably only historical reasons, and all my ‘core X stuff’: i3-wm, dbus, setxkbmap, fontconfig. <roptat>how to check whether a file is a symlink in guile? I tried with (stat:type (stat "myfile")) but it returns 'regular or 'directory even for symlinks <nckx>If that sounds arbitrary, that's because it is. A random other half of things in my .xsession are in my user manifest for no reason. I should move more there. <nckx>roptat: I think ‘symlink’ actually means ‘*dangling* symlink’, like the old ‘-type l -xtype l’ find hack. <nckx>Glad you found a solution 🙂 <rekado_>wanted to renew the LE certs for guix.gnu.org and all sub-domains but certbot tells me that “CAA record for guix.gnu.org prevents issuance” <rekado_>roptat: do you know what this means? <nckx>rekado_: guix.gnu.org does not allow LE to issue certificates for it. <nckx>(k)dig guix.gnu.org caa. <nckx>(Without trailing full stop.) <rekado_>oh, so I guess we would need to stop the CDN temporarily? <nckx>rekado_: You need to add a CAA 0 issue(wild?) "letsencrypt.org" record, at least. *jonsger replaced his desktop with the notebook, because of another hot week coming... <nckx>If Amazon doesn't allow setting/passing through CAA records, yes. <nckx>guix.gnu.org. 3600 IN CAA 0 issuewild "letsencrypt" <nckx>So probably just a typo \o/ <nckx>rekado_: ☝ missing .org. <rekado_>nckx: oh. I’ll write to guix-sysadmin to have a record of this.