<ng0>uxp.. ha. with that toxic upstream of upstream. interesting interpretation of the future direction of thunderbird (rust) to call it "bloat", remove it and call it a day. I'm half-curious how this development is working out for them.
<nckx>Sure, but then you have to file a bug report for the installer.
<kori>on account of not having corebooted my laptop and it not accepting my free wifi card
<kori>when I do that it'll be useful to know how to not include anything efi-related
<nckx>kori: I'm almost certain that simply not including EFI versions of things on the ISO won't solve a thing. The ISO already *has* a bootable (non-UEFI) MBR; the problem is that your PC won't boot it.
<ng0>SeaMonkey is also an option, but idk how much you'd have to modify it for guix
<kori>it kinda sucks that proprietary software exists
<nckx>kori: I still suggest installing a UEFI system now (you can make your EFI system partition huge and turn it into swap later, or use gparted live to remove it later and grow your root), get a working Guix system, *then* switch to a non-UEFI grub, reconfigure, and see if your BIOS does boot the HDD.
<kori>im gonna go to the CEO of proprietary software and give him a stern talking to
<nckx>It won't be harder dan doing it from the installer.
<kori>nckx: or i could just suck it up until i get coreboot cooking
<kori>by the way im the author of Xlambda, not sure if you heard of that, and im really really excited to get guixsd working on my machine (if I can. I probably can)
<nckx>kori: Sure. That is the better solution. But then you will not be using Guix today.
<kori>i want to make my own sort of scheme oriented distro and i figured im going to share a lot of code with guix, going either way, so i thought it'd be interested that i get involved with the guix community
<nckx>kori: I sort of understand your mistrust, but UEFI really doesn't add any spoopy insecurities, BIOS and UEFI are exactly as insecure (i.e. 100%). UEFI bloated? Sure. Don't ever take a look at BIOS code if you think it's better though. It just does less. It does it just as badly.
<kori>nckx: >i want to make my own sort of scheme oriented distro and i figured im going to share a lot of code with guix, going either way, so i thought it'd be interested that i get involved with the guix community, share ideas and whatnot, fun fun
<nckx>I still need to try exwm, but this looks interesting too. I'll wait until ‘As there is currently no mouse support, Xlambda must be used with another window manager in order to be useful’ is fixed, though.
<nckx>We put a WM in your WM so you can WM while you WM is just a bit much for me. I already run a WM in my WM, it's called emacs.
<nckx>I'm really behind on this whole PantherX thing…
<ng0>at least they have money to be incorporated (the hardware selling side at least (Panther MVP), no idea how much that costs in ireland. I'm just assuming that they didn't step into this empty handed.
<nckx>rvgn: I was talking mainly about UXP (which I'm quite familiar with); I don't know much about the Hyperbola side. But note that the meat is in UXP: rendering engine, JS engine, it's not just a UI library. It's basically the browser. But if the Hyperbola team is helping to maintain it, all the better.
<jwgarber>one more question. I'm trying to add a custom menu-entry, and need to add the initrd. Is there a way of specifying the "default" one I already have on my system?
<nckx>My headless server is now building guile-wm. Something's rotten in the state of my box.
<nckx>jwgarber: I'm almost certain the answer is yes (it certainly *should* be possible), I just have no idea how to write it. So, ehm, take it as encouragement? 😛
<jwgarber>nckx: hah, thanks :D what I'm really trying to do is add a custom kernel option, but don't see a way of doing that for the default entry
<nckx>Your o-s declaration has an initrd field, you might be able to refer to it (or its default value base-initrd directly). It's a procedure but what it produces, I do not know. Maybe a gexp. Maybe not.
<nckx>kori: Well, without seeing the actual configuration file, I'm guessing cons is the most appropriate to use there. We could use (append (list atom) %rest) everywhere to appear newbie-friendly, but it's not actually great code from a Scheme perspective.
<nckx>kori: linux-libre isn't part of %base-packages.
<nckx>kori: It's certainly much appreciated to have read (and really read, at least the relevant parts) the docs before asking questions. You'll ask better questions and we can give better answers that use the right terminology (and Guix has some subtleties, like ‘why is my kernel not part of system-packages?’, that can only be explained if you speak the same language).
<nckx>kori: That blog post above is the only one I know of that deals with custom kernels specifically, there's also a ‘packaging tutorial’ on the same blog that looks good (hard to tell if you already know) but probably less relevant to the kernel.
<kori>you already told me the kernel is not a package
<nckx>eric23: I've actually always wondered about that service (when I saw the code; I didn't know it's Shepherd name until now). You should ask lfam here what it's supposed to do and why it seems to fail on every system. I can't really make time now.
<apteryx>any way to retrofit a MBR above LUKS? :-/
<apteryx>I forgot... eh. After shuffling gigs of data onto my new system SSD
<jas4711>civodul: could i just destroy guix.sjd.se?
<jas4711>civodul: for x15.sjd.se, i have another x15 board laying around so we could get that up and running before disabling the old one
<jas4711>civodul: i had an idea to run guix directly on it, but i'm not sure i have time to experiment with that.
<jas4711>mbakke: i need assistance to get the new machines (guix/x15-replacements) setup into the guix infrastrcture. i'm happy to leave a newly installed debian machine up'n'running and give ssh root access to it for you to maintain it further.
<nckx>civodul: I gave up on installing Guix System ‘over’ the OverDrive OS. It kept corrupting the DB. I bought a big USB drive, installed an arm64 distribution on it, then installed Guix System properly. It *seems* to have worked. It's been running ‘guix pull’ (from 1.0.0) for the past 2 days. It's now building gcc (yes, substitutes are authorised).
<jas4711>maybe only the x15 is relevant any more? i'm happy to install a new x15 board and give you access to build stuff on it
<nckx>The other, weirder, issues I had were due to a loose CPU fan connector, I think. I hope.
<Tirifto>Anyone experienced the error ‘No GSettings schemas are installed on the system’ while using Guix? Apparently it shows up when programs are started from a shell where I tried to extend $XDG_DATA_DIRS with Guix directories…
<pkill9_>Tirifto: the schemas need to be in either the user profile or the system profile
<manzerbredes>pkill9_:thank you, meaning: if I want to have a full raproducible package, I have to give its package definition along with the right channel (that contains the guix right guix commit) to use ?
<iyzsong>well, got "Network error on destination MXs" :(
<Tirifto>Interesting observation: when running ‘echo $XDG_DATA_DIRS’ from GNOME, the variable is empty… but in Englihtenment, it contains the data dirs you'd expect! That could be why GNOME alone crashes when I try to extend $XDG_DATA_DIRS.
<Tirifto>My guess it that at some level, $XDG_DATA_DIRS is empty in GNOME, so when I try to extend it, I'm really just extending and empty string, so $XDG_DATA_DIRS become only the Guix data dirs. But GNOME needs to have the variable defined somewhere higher up, otherwise it wouldn't mind overriding. I have no idea how to access that, though. :/
<jas4711>mbakke: do you think guix.sjd.se is still relevant? would you miss it if i killed it?
<wdkrnls`>Hello - I am new to guix and am getting lost with understanding how applications in guix are customized. For example: right now I'm trying to figure out how to customize emacs. Unlike other distros, I can't seem to just plop stuff into my .emacs.d/init.el. This sounds fine to me, since I grok that this is not automatically reproducible path to application customization, but I'm unclear as to what I should actually be doing.
<rvgn>bandali Abrowser is technically softcore version of icecat??
<erudition>Kinda, yeah. Wish they would just merge and focus on ice at though.
<rvgn>erudition icecat (gnu version of iceweasel) and icesnake (gnu version of icedove). The latter is prospective idea.
<erudition>But Trisquel has Icecat and Icedove... Now I'm confused, so much fragmentation
<erudition>I've never seen Iceweasel but I thought that was only in debian
<erudition>Well Trisquel picked the better named of the bunch, anyhow
<rvgn>erudition What I meant was currently GNUzilla Suite has only browser (icecat). I suggested bandali could try creating a mail-client (ideally named icesnake; as a part of GNUzilla Suite. The, GNUzilla = icecat (browser) + icesnake (mail-client).
<bandali>Yeah iceweasel is a whole bunch of different things :p e.g. in Parabola, iceweasel is something akin to Trisquel’s abrowser: based on regular firefox and less strict that icecat
<rvgn>Icedove cannot be directly combined to GNUzilla as theres should freedom, security and privacy enhancements and may require different name for the package.
<erudition>I understand now, but ugh more fragmentation, plus Icedove has enough issues from its conversion, an even stricter one would be so much effort for so little userbase (remember thunderbird was abandoned by Mozilla some time ago)
<nckx>rvgn: Claws mail is special. I used it for a year or two, I liked it then, but I wouldn't now.
<nckx>rvgn: I've responded to your mail. Basically, I think these should remain optional (they are options, after all, not enabled by default if I read your mail correctly), but the messages are needlessy vague.
<kori>im looking forward to getting more involved with guix nonetheless :D
<kori>it's where all the os-related scheme is happening!
<nckx>rvgn: Oh, don't feel obliged to agree, it is indeed a trade-off. ‘Always work no matter what optional features the user enables’ vs. ‘don't bloat the hell out of things’. There's no one true choice.
<rvgn>nckx But wouldn't be better if claws-mail package comes with gpg, so that users can on/off the feature without needing install/remove another package?
<wdkrnls`>nckx: yeah, I saw the hint but it didn't communicate to me in the Shannon sense. It's not an obvious behavior to me that it wouldn't just print all results interactively. Then, if that were too much and I wasn't just running this command in emacs I might be tempted to use less.
<wdkrnls`>okay, that makes enough sense. thanks everyone.
<wdkrnls`>I'm just going to guix search 'whatever' | cat from now on.
*nckx uses a bash function to do that but with less.
***ng0 is now known as nikita
***nikita is now known as ng0
<mantlepro>I'd like to create a shepherd service for an application to start at boot. I've read the docs at the usual places (https://guix.gnu.org/) but still trying to grasp shepherd's equivalent of a systemd unit file. Any hints?
<mantlepro>Where do all the other service files live for example? It would be beneficial to see openssh's or apache's definition
<Tirifto>So I got the $XDG_DATA_DIRS thing working and will write an e-mail on that tomorrow.
<Tirifto>Also, how is language for software installed via Guix determined? My Icecat (from Guix) is in English and my Aegisub (from Guix) is in Czech, but my system locale (on GNOME, Parabola) is set to Esperanto. :/
<nckx>Tirifto: The standard way ($LANG, $LC_* etc.). The Czech is just weird.
<Tirifto>nckx: My system locale was probably Czech when I installeg Aegisub; is it meant to stick?
<nckx>Tirifto: Aegisub probably saved it as a ‘programme preference’ somewhere instead of getting it from the environment as is expected on Unix, yes.
<nckx>I noticed this a few days ago and tried to fix it myself, so haven't reported a bug yet, but I haven't managed so far.
<nckx>Tirifto: Does other Guix software detect the proper locale? I noticed that Esperanto translations are very incomplete (ls --help has no translations; nano speaks it fluently), but ‘eo’ should work when translations are available.
<Tirifto>Good luck with that, nckx! I'd join your efforts, but I've yet to study my way to that part of Guix.
<nckx>And I've yet to study the arcane mysteries of the IceCat build system.
<Tirifto>Well, Guix itself utters some Esperanto here and there. Not sure about software therein…
<nckx>Tirifto: Then it's ‘working’, we just need more volunteer translators 🙂
<nckx>(We = Free software in general, Guix itself is quite all right considering the size of it.)
<nckx>kori: Neither of them will work. ‘Installing’ a package just plonks its files into a profile; they are inert. They don't do anything. (You can invoke executables because $PATH points to those otherwise inert files in …/bin, but that's different.)
<nckx>kori: You need to tell Guix ‘use this kernel to boot my sysbox’.
<nckx>You can do this by adding (kernel my-kernel-package) to your operating-system declaration.
<nckx>I mentioned this yesterday but it's a lot to take in at first 🙂
<Tirifto>nckx: As far as I know, Icecat is officially a distro-independent project whose maintainers make a release whenever they get around to it, which is not too often. I think Guix was initially backporting new patches to its own Icecat release (to ensure the only packaged modern browser would stay secure), and eventually shifted to keeping up with upstream Firefox releases on its own, probably working off the same code as the official GNUzilla Icecat proje
*nckx continues fruitlessly plonking zh_CN.xpi into random directories to illustrate this fact.
<Tirifto>Yeah, I think it's something like that. And there has been talk about unifying all those separate projects to liberate Firefox, but I don't know how that's going. :P
<wdkrnls`>So: just tried configuring GNOME evolution: I got to the last step and then got the error: "The name org.gnome.evolution.dataserver.Sources5 was not provided by any .service files". That doesn't sound good.
<rekado_>wdkrnls`: you probably need to install the evolution-data-server package globally
<wdkrnls`>thanks (goes and reads how to install packages globally...)
<nckx>emacsomancer: My system-packages was once based on %base-packages (with things I don't use removed), it also contains emacs and ncurses (clear, reset) for probably only historical reasons, and all my ‘core X stuff’: i3-wm, dbus, setxkbmap, fontconfig.
<roptat>how to check whether a file is a symlink in guile? I tried with (stat:type (stat "myfile")) but it returns 'regular or 'directory even for symlinks
<nckx>If that sounds arbitrary, that's because it is. A random other half of things in my .xsession are in my user manifest for no reason. I should move more there.