<erudition>michmichaelrose: no, I'm pretty sure we lose many prospective new users because of the need to get through that manual. Videos would be a big improvement
<michaelrose>erudition: videos make sense when there is something complex being visually communicated. Taking apart something is a great example
<michaelrose>when your installer is the user editing a text file and performing a series of operations in the shell a video is worse in every possible way. Its much slower to communicate by 2-3 times, its hard for the user to go through at their own pace scrubbing a video is more complicated than scrolling a document, harder to refer to
<michaelrose>even for a gui installer a handful of screenshots and a document one can read in a few minutes would be better than a 20 minute video
<erudition>Firstly, they never specified that the video should use the manual install method. There is now a psuedo-graphical installer, which does not necessarily involve all of the steps you describe. In fact, they never even said "guix install _tutorial_ video", so simply a video of watching the install process fits the bill. Many people want to watch it before they go through it. There are tons of videos of people just installing
<wr>michaelrose, i can spend days reading a freebsd manual, but on a virtual machine install of freebsd that's it
<erudition>In fact, I saw a video on someone installing nix before I decided if I wanted to go through the effort
<michaelrose>erudition: because its easier to make worthless content than it is to make worthwhile content, there are lots of unboxing videos and 10 things you didn't know about something you don't care about doesn't mean the world needs more of them
<erudition>You have it backwards. Whether they are any good has no bearing on whether they are the preferred format for many prospective users.
<michaelrose>I actually listed objective differences not just opinion
<erudition>I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. You or I might not see the value in things like unboxing videos. But you can't project your values onto the whole worldlest we detriment outreach efforts
<erudition>There are lots of side effect benefits to having an install video also. For example if you're having trouble on the install you can go check out what it's "supposed to" look like, skipping to that part
<erudition>You can also get a feel for how long it will take, unlike a text manual
<wr>michaelrose, tell that to all the guys who make videos of systems installs
<wr>erudition, if put that to the test you will see imediatly results
<erudition>It's similar to how people dismissed the GUI as being inferior to the command line because they see it as more efficient... And concluded that therefore they should never bother with a GUI. Which is fine for them, but it's a mistake to project that onto the rest of the world
<wr>michaelrose, an install on video is just a small example of what can do
<wr>erudition, i can agree a command line is more powerfull, but only if you know how to use if, many people may not and prefer something like a GUI
<erudition>You are arguing that we shouldn't make an install video because it's doomed to be not as good. The Fallacy is thinking that those people will say "oh well, can't find a video, guess I'll just read the manual"
<erudition>When in fact it may very well be that they will say "oh well, guess I won't try guix"
<wr>no no no, i said first if there was any, and if one was made it would be nice example of a install
<michaelrose>wr: gui vs cli and video vs document is a terrible analogy the document is more discoverable than the video
<wr>michaelrose, your thinking on video to substitue a manual i never said that in that way, what i mean is you have a manual, and a fast video of how to do a guix install, that's it, how long does it take to install a GUIX? minutes?
<erudition>Discoverability. More "technical merits". Though even that's debatable, because YouTube for example will definitely rank high SEO-wise
<wr>erudition, you don't need to use youtube when have mediagoblin
<erudition>No one said you'd need to. But media goblin would definitely have poor discoverability unfortunately
<wr>maybe less, but... it's free software and youtube is not
<erudition>There is no doubt that there will be plenty of textual resources when it comes to guix
<michaelrose>lol the video is just a textual document describing installation where every several seconds it changes pages
<erudition>Although "serving" isn't a problem when it comes to YouTube. Basically unlimited storage.
<wr>michaelrose, like said once, keep referring videos as a substitute for manuals, we are on different points, i never said do a video to substitute a manual, just said can make a video, then can use manual aside, different things
<erudition>Videos cannot be easily updated, and will never replace the manual entirely
<quiliro>i think that if wr wants to make a video, it would be a good contribution
<quiliro>but if he/she wants someone else to make a video, it would not be the best use of resources
<michaelrose>wr: do you actually believe you can replace a manual with a zillion videos?
<wr>michaelrose, erudition if you guys don't like videos don't wanna stress you guys with that, but i wonder since GUIX is Free Software if a user does make a good video install and is glad to submit it the GUIX site will it ever be online?
<wr>quiliro, since this is Free Software if someone else does it i cannot say anything
<michaelrose>how do you search for the point in all videos where the speaker said a particular word, or what about if a command syntax changed ever so slightly do you reshoot half your videos instead of doing find and replace in text
<wr>michaelrose, since it's technically possible, yes, but i do agree a manual takes less space
<quiliro>it would be interesting to confirm if the videos' licenses are free
<quiliro>would you be willing to make this contribution?
<michaelrose>wr: As I said videos are good for promotion, not help to install software. If you consider making a guix video it should showcase interesting features of guix, its install isn't neccesarily an interesting feature.
<wr>if the site is on a free platform, and it is on gnu.org
<wr>quiliro, as soon as i install it well, see no problem
<ryanprior>I'd like to do some Clojure development in guix. The way I'd normally do that is with leiningen, but there's no package for that. Looks like in 2017 somebody thought about packaging it but it stalled.
<ryanprior>There is a `clojure` package but I can't tell what it does. If you `guix environment --ad-hoc clojure` it doesn't give you lein, javac, maven, nothing.
<ryanprior>I ran `guix edit clojure` to look at the package definition but I'm just as confused as before - I don't know the package DSL well enough to understand what the package is trying to provide.
<ryanprior>Anybody else do Clojure development with guix? I tried searching "guix clojure howto" but the results are about either guix or clojure, not both.
<roptat>it looks similar to the user on distrowatch, but there's something going on with the resulting profiles anyway
<roptat>we thought the issue was that the user tried to do two operations at the same time, but this time, the profile ends up having a corrupted manifest it seems
<roptat>and I don't think it's possible even if you run multiple transactions at the same time
<civodul>roptat: the manifest is in the store, so it's "impossible" to have a corrupt manifest
<Fzer0>ryanprior: I asked the same question yesterday, but didn't get very far. I also installed Clojure and typed "clj" from the terminal...and nothing. I would love to get this sorted out but I just installed GUIX two days ago. Did you have any luck?
<davexunit>if this is your first time using Guix I really wouldn't recommend it.
*pkill9_ wants to make a guix service that provides a web frontend for updating the static site
<davexunit>I've been using guix for years and I would never use it on a machine that I didn't have root on.
*pkill9_ then wants to use `guix deploy` to run the server
<davexunit>pkill9_: it rebuilds every so often via the cron schedule. there's nothing to detect an update.
<Diagon>davexunit - I see. Would I be wrong in saying that would be kind of like a gentoo portage experience? I've got a server on which I don't have root privilege. I've been using homebrew/linuxbrew and recentrly trying junest, but neither are great.
<davexunit>Diagon: yeah, I guess it would be something like that. you'll have to compile *everything*.
<pkill9_>there's not really much need to regenerate immediately i guess
<Diagon>davexunit - righto. I did check Nix, and they say you have to install to ... I think it's /usr/local, so that needs root. You have any thoughts on another pkg manager that wouldn't? If not, it LL guix and portage are the two ...
<davexunit>I haven't looked at this stuff in awhile but I believe this is a complete wrapper of the inotify API and it's a standalone module that anyone could snarf and use somewhere else.
<davexunit>civodul: glad Haunt is working out well for the website :)
<Dynamicmetaflow>civodul: Yes, I agree, I think it should definitely be possible from some initial testing, what one could do is use one of the existing VM templates (debian fedora) and run guix on top as a package manger. They even have a minial template for these distro. It's what I'm trying to do now, I was able to install guix although running into a slight error with guix pull and sql, I think it's either related to the memory of the VM or
<nckx>davexunit: Ah! Thanks! I only found some non-confidence-inspiring stuff that was abandoned in 2012 & 2014.
<Dynamicmetaflow>civodul: The interesting part, is that Qubes allows you to create your own template VM from scratch, so that is an area I would be intereted in exploring. What would be great is to specific specific apps in a VM that were installed by guix with qubes.
<Dynamicmetaflow>So still learning and trying to put pieces together, I hope someday Qubes integrates guix further as I think it makes it a strong candidate for this idea of security through isolation and also reproducecibility
<davexunit>nckx: you're welcome! maybe I should release this as a standalone project, though the obvious name is already taken.
<erudition>jackhill: Elm's compiler is indeed written in Haskell
<davexunit>civodul: he was planning on reviewing it today, so I guess wait?
<dongcarl>Any gnu/cross build system things I can help review?
<jackhill>erudition: awesome. I guess it should be possible to make a Guix package and install it with Guix :)
<jackhill>Now, "just" to solve ghc bootstrapping :)
<pkill9_>would it be preferred that if a local path is specified in channels.scm, then it won't use git to pull the channel but just access it directly? At the moment, the path needs to be a git repository and the changes need to be committed
<ryanprior>Fzer0: I have not made any progress on figuring out how to do Clojure development with guix yet. I would appreciate any tips from other users, and when I get going myself I'm looking forward to creating an illustrated guide for others :)
<orang3>hello guix! I'm packaging some NodeJS libraries. For a single file library would you install it directly inside (assoc-ref %outputs "out") or inside "out/bin" or even "out/lib"? thank you
<Fzer0>ryanprior: I made a little progress today. Try this and see if it can get you started, here goes:
<Fzer0>first find clojure, if you installed as a user then go to "cd" "$HOME/.guix-grofile/share/java
<Fzer0>to start a repl type: "java -jar clojure.jar"
<Fzer0>ryanprior: did that work for you...help at all? I am a beginner on GUIX and clojure so I feel a little in adequate to help anyone
<ryanprior>I haven't actually done a "guix install clojure" - I was trying to do it without installing it in my user profile.
<Fzer0>ryanprior: I did that at first to, but then I decided I would create a Guix Environment (which i haven't done yet) and keep my development areas seperate
<ryanprior>If I do "guix environment clojure" I do get a PATH that has "java" on it- but I don't know where to find clojure.jar if it's available.
<tune>I saw some people talking about hugo in here the other day. is anyone working on packaging that? I'd be interested in using it to make a website, but I run guix on my main machine so I have not been able to try it yet
<ryanprior>Oh nice, I was just wondering about guix deploy the other day. Thanks for the link.
<Fzer0>ryanprior: That is the wall i ran up against as well, so I decided to install it in my user profile using "guix package --install clojure"
<Fzer0>ryanprior: then the path i shared should work
<ryanprior>So this really shows the limits of what I understand about guix: why do you get that when you `guix install clojure` but you don't get that when you `guix environment --ad-hoc clojure`?
<Fzer0>ryanprior: good question, and I really don't know the answer but I don't think the clojure package is setup the same as others, it takes another setup to run the "program". Since ad-hoc is kind of a way to test things out maybe all the connections aren't there...i dunno
<ryanprior>Fzer0: we're gonna get this licked and then we can start building some cool tools and workflows around it =D
<roptat>orang3: you might want to wait for the node-build-system to be merged
<roptat>It should make it easier for you to package tgings
<Fzer0>ryanprior: sounds good. I am stupid enough to keep trying, at least scheme makes sense to me. I tried NixOS for a while and even though the tooling seems more mature, i have up learning the language
<Fzer0>ryanprior: did you try to guix install clojure? Could you get it working in an environment?
<ryanprior>I ran "guix install --profile=clj-dev clojure" and now I'm trying to figure out how to use or switch to the "clj-dev" profile
<roptat>pkill9_, there's the node-build-system and a node importer, but the importer really isn't ready
<nckx>sneek_: later ask pkill9: What do you mean by workflow? That implies human work, which shouldn't be necessary. I also wouldn't call mesa or xorg ‘core’ by any stretch, but that's good news for you: search the manual for ‘input rewriting’. I hope that satisfies your curiosity.
<ryanprior>Dynamicmetaflow: my understanding is you can use Qubes with pretty much any package or system. Do you mean you're creating a TemplateVM for GuixSD? Or that you've installed Guix on top of a Debian TemplateVM as a foreign distro?
<Dynamicmetaflow>I've installed Guix on top of a Debian Minimal TemplateVM. The next step I'm doing now is have applications installed by Guix show up in the appvm shortcuts.
<quiliro>el autor de la laptop novena habla de ese camino...aunque no estoy de acuerdo con que use software privativo porque las capas inferirores son privativas, sí creo que hay mucho más que depurar de privativo que solamente el software, el firmware cambiable y el microcógigo
<nckx>minall: --with-source= is good for experimentation (that said—I've never used it), but if you want to make your changes more permanent (e.g. keep using a modified version of that driver in your OS configuration), you'll need to add a snippet or phase to patch the sources programatically. I'm not sure where or if this is documented. You'd use something like: (define-public my-foo (package (inherit foo) (name "my-foo") (source …)))
<sneek_>pkill9_, nckx says: What do you mean by workflow? That implies human work, which shouldn't be necessary. I also wouldn't call mesa or xorg ‘core’ by any stretch, but that's good news for you: search the manual for ‘input rewriting’. I hope that satisfies your curiosity.
<null_radix[m]>also is there any wiki or something where i can document how to install sway?
<mbakke>null_radix: Send an email to NNNNemail@example.com, where NNNN is the issue number to close it.
<pkill9_>nckx: by workflow i mean, for example, do you set GUIX_BUILD_OPTIONS environment variable when running `guix system reconfigure` and `guix package`, or maybe you maintain an alternative version of guix with those replacements
<pkill9_>nckx: are they not considered core components? I think they are for a lot of desktop packages
<nckx>pkill9_: Just our respective biases at work, I think 🙂 ‘Core’ for me means even lower-level than that. It's only relevant here because the input-rewriting method I linked does not work for implicit dependencies, i.e. everything provided by the build system (glibc, gcc, &c, the stuff you don't explicitly add to inputs).
<nckx>pkill9_: I also had literally no knowledge of anything called GUIX_BUILD_OPTIONS. I personally don't work like that: I'd write a Scheme file that does what I want (in this case: a custom package variant in my system.scm for example), not fiddle around with custom invocation options that I need to script or remember or export and forget.
<dmarinoj>usney: someone wrote a user shepherd daemon to periodically run `guix gc'