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2019-06-14.log

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<EuAndreh[m]>Is there an EPUB version of the Guix manual?
<EuAndreh[m]>Or is there a tool to produce an EPUB from Texinfo?
<kmicu>Thank you pkill9!
<sebboh>hi guix.
<sebboh>Question, does it make sense to try to use a guix on a foreign distro to carry out a `guix system init ... ...`? See I got this spare hard drive in my desktop..
<sebboh>I didn't realize what time it already was by the time I got a chance to sign in here today. Please excuse me.
<bavier`>sebboh: yes, that's fine, iirc the manual even discusses this use case
<bavier`>EuAndreh[m]: you can use makeinfo to produce a docbook output, then feed that to dbtoepub, apparently
<bavier`>EuAndreh[m]: https://kanru.info/blog/archives/2010/11/18/convert-texinfo-to-mobi/
<EuAndreh[m]>bavier`: Thanks for the link. I'm not familiar with DocBook, is the conversion a lossy process?
<bavier`>probably not too lossy, if at all, that links make it sound like it works fairly well; though I've not tried it myself before
<EuAndreh[m]>I'll try it and report back
<quiliro>saluton
<quiliro>I once downoaded the manual in html (single web page)
<quiliro>then used calibre to transform it to my kindle format
<quiliro>it can be used to transform it to ebook too
<quiliro>hope that is useful
<EuAndreh[m]>quiliro: Dankon 🙂
<EuAndreh[m]>I'm now running bootstrap + configure etc. in the guix repo to build the Texinfo
<quiliro>EuAndreh[m]: Nedankinde
<EuAndreh[m]>I'll try with Calibre later
<quiliro>EuAndreh[m]: estas bone
<quiliro>Ĝi estas bone
<quiliro>Kiel oni povas eviti ke Gnome-o blokadi la monitoron?
<quiliro> Kiel oni povas eviti ke Gnome-o blokados la monitoron?
***jonsger1 is now known as jonsger
<quiliro>How i it possible to avoid Gnome from locking the screen?
<quiliro>s/"i it"/"is it"/
<rekahsoft>Hi all, I have been working on packaging a few things for guix and had a question regarding a few things
<rekahsoft>1. How should configuration be managed for a package? Eg. I've packaged podman which needs a few configuration files to exist in /etc/, however I'm not sure the best way to accomplish this in guix?
<alexanderbarbosa>fck node... moving on to python lol
<rekahsoft>2. How should languages that 'vendor code' be handled, for example go? I would prefer if the dependencies came from guix, instead of from the vendored code included along side the application
<EuAndreh[m]>quiliro: bavier`: I couldn't find the 'dbtoepub' package neither in Guix or NixOS (the package managers I have). I could convert from HTML to EPUB in Calibre, though.
<EuAndreh[m]>I even started an Ubuntu docker image to run the 'dbtoepub', but Calibre finished first :)
<bavier`>EuAndreh[m]: glad it worked
<quiliro>EuAndreh[m]: Mi estas feliĉa de via bonŝanco kaj via lerto
<rekahsoft>Is there a way to get the sha256 (base32 encoded) of a git origin using guix download?
<quiliro>rekahsoft: i think i saw something about it on the manual...did you check it?
<quiliro>i do not recall where i saw that
<rekahsoft>quiliro: I have been through the manual multiple times but have not seen a reference to this so far. I have been getting around this by doing it manually
<rekahsoft>Here is the relevant documentation: https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/manual/en/guix.html#Invoking-guix-download
<rekahsoft>I don't see anything about the format of URLs
<quiliro>have you checked guix hash?
<quiliro>rekahsoft: found it on section 7.4 by searching for 'base32'
<quiliro>is that what you are searching for?
<rekahsoft>quiliro: Yes and this is what I meant by 'doing it manually'. I would be nice if I could do it in a single step like when using http or mirror urls with `guix download`
<rekahsoft>quiliro: I appreciate you digging in to take a look though :)
<quiliro>rekahsoft: oh...mi komprenas nun!
<quiliro>pardunu min
<quiliro>Kiel mi fartos kursan sylabus-on de Guix-o ?
<Gamayun>Anyone know where a user instance of mcron would log to?
<quiliro>is there a sylabus for learning Guix?
<Gamayun>That would be useful.
<quiliro>I think that learning by installing is a great first step...even reading the config file constructed by the graphic installer
<quiliro>would be a great first step
<Gamayun>Yes. Reading the manual and figuring out how to use the config file is probably the most natural place to start.
<quiliro>Then it would be great to create a simple package...like the tutorial on the blog
<Gamayun>I actually worry a bit that the graphic installer could end up being an obstacle to newcomers, as it hides that complexity you will still most likely have to deal with afterwards (for the time being). Then again just getting to a working install used to be obstacle enough in itself.
<rvgn>kmicu So that message a bug?
<arbi>I'm building my first package using the cargo-build-system and it's currently building the rust-1.33.0.drv
<arbi>I'd expect to be pulling substitutes instead of building
<sebboh>bavier`: well, I haven't read it cover to cover.. I haven't figured out yet how to activate the cow-store .. I don't have a herd command.
<sebboh>hm I searched the single page html manual for 'cow' and didn't find a way to start it without herd. I don't know if I'm supposed to have it or if I'm supposed to start it some other way.
<sebboh>hold the phone--I *do* have a herd command. I must have got that fixed at some point when I was fixing something else. bam
<sebboh> epherd[2392]: system-error("open-file" "~A: ~S" ("No such file or directory" "/gnu/store/c7qcancm3bj3294l6krhsyr96wn3h0mk-shepherd-0.6.1/etc/shepherd.scm") (2))
<sebboh>that's what I get when I blindly run `shepherd` as root on a foreign distro. I'm just going to take a usb stick into the livingroom.
***tilpner_ is now known as tilpner
<civodul>Hello Guix!
<Gamayun>Saluton civodul!
<civodul>saluton! :-)
<civodul>hmm i'm surprised we don't have substitutes for qt
<str1ngs>for 'qt' or qtbase?
<civodul>'qt'
<civodul>oh but i shouldn't be using it, right?
<civodul>i always forget
<str1ngs>I'm not sure how often that is used. qtbase should be used before that.
<civodul>yes
<str1ngs>possibly qt was used to bootstrap qtbase and qttools
<civodul>no, it's actually the old monolithic package
<str1ngs>or that, sorry I wasn't aware of the history
<civodul>so qtbase & co. supersede it
<str1ngs>maybe it could be deprecated at one point ?
<civodul>probably!
<civodul>it doesn't have any users right now
<civodul>WDYT, efraim?
<str1ngs>also I think some changes to the modular qt packages are needed. many packages inherit qtsvg which generates a qt.conf
<str1ngs>I think maybe qt.conf should held in the store. and reused for all qmake packages. that will sanitize QT paths
<str1ngs>but it works now, so best to not change it . more of a passing thought I had
<efraim>I'd love to ditch the old one, not sure anything uses it ATM
<civodul>efraim:
<civodul>nothing uses it
<civodul>we could mark it as deprecated
<efraim>Sounds good to me
<xavierm02>Sometimes, number are invisible in the IceCat address bar (and some other fields, like in the preferences). Installing the GNU freefont fixes it though. But why is EmojiOne the default font when installing icecat on a newly-installed guix?
<xavierm02>(And also: Hi!)
<civodul>hi xavierm02!
<civodul>EmojiOne is the default font?
<xavierm02>civodul: It seems to be yes. I've installed guix twice, one on a laptop and another time in a VM and both times, I had no numbers in IceCat until I installed another font.
<xavierm02>(Well in some pages, you can see some numbers, but I think that it's when they specified another font)
<playX>Is there any repository with firefox package definition? :D
<sneek>Welcome back playX, you have 1 message.
<sneek>playX, jonsger says: llvm version 8.0.0 is now available on guix master :)
<playX>it's really hard to use Epiphany/Eolie for browsing, Spotify doesn't works with Epiphany and Eolie too :(
<sammich>I have done a lot of searching for a ff package playX, none seem to exist
<sammich>My current solution is to use the nix package on guix
<playX>Nix in Guix :thinking:
<playX>Nix in Guix? :thinking:
<Gamayun>I believe I have seen one in a git-repo. But why not just use icecat? Or do Spotify and friends need DRM to work now?
<sammich>spotify requires drm
<playX>I seen one package but this package got only firefox 49
<civodul>playX: did you try IceCat?
<civodul>it's a rebranded Firefox with extra add-ons enabled by default
<playX>Spotify needs DRM, and as I know IceCat doesn't have DRM
<playX>I will try to install later
<civodul>ah, digital handcuffs
<pkill9>oh that sucks
<rekado_>civodul: we also have no substitute for tensorflow, which is surprising. The build doesn’t fail.
<civodul>rekado_: let's run "guix build ...tensorflow.drv" on the machine
<playX>Why webkitgtk is built from source code when I run `guix package -u`?
<playX>this thing takes eternity to compile :/
<kmicu> civodul, rekado_ what’s the rationale for showing ‘export PATH="/root/.config/guix/current/bin${PATH:+:}$PATH" may be needed’ in guix pull on Guix System?
<kmicu>(I never paid attention to those long guix pull logs but rvgn asked yesterday why Guix System cannot set that path for us if that’s really needed.)
<nckx>kmicu: Are you saying that this message was redundant because that fragment was already in $PATH, or because on Guix System we control everything and could just change it for the user?
<nckx>The latter is not so.
<janneke>playX: probably because of: `87d336e20f gnu: gtk+: Update to 3.24.8.'
<kmicu>nckx: That PATH is not set by default on Guix System. But ‘may be needed’ hidden somewhere in the wall of guix pull text is generally confusing. I’m asking why that message is displayed? Where is the rationale? E.g. I cannot find a git commit message or a PATCH on the mailing list explaining that.
<nckx>It's not hidden, it's printed at the very end right above your prompt.
<nckx>Which message is that?
<Gamayun>Is it not mostly for using Guix on some other distro (or in a weird shell, w/o rebooting etc.)? I don't think I've needed to manually set any variables in Guix System yet.
<kmicu>nckx: yesterday I did guix pull as root and that message is printed in the middle of log, closer to the beginning.
<nckx>Gamayun: Then you haven't installed many new things ;-)
<nckx>kmicu: Which message?
<nckx>And what followed it?
<kmicu>something like PATH="/root/.config/guix/current/bin${PATH:+:}$PATH" may be needed.
<civodul>kmicu: the wall of text is gone!
<civodul>stop complaining! ;-)
<kmicu>Is it?
<civodul>yup!
<civodul>or at least it's a much smaller wall
<civodul>easy to jump over
<kmicu>Let me guix pull (and reconfigure to confirm).
<civodul>(like a quick brown fox)
<civodul>also, the wall was only displayed for missing environment variables
<civodul>so you'd generally see it only when you get started
<kmicu>Could we set those missing envars in Guix System services?
<nckx>I still don't understand which wall they meant (or my definition of wall is different ☺ ).
<nckx>kmicu: Those variables are set automatically for you.
<kmicu>~500 lines of text after Guix Pull?
<civodul>500 lines?!
<civodul>that would be the Great Wall
<kmicu>But I saw PATH="/root/.config/guix/current/bin${PATH:+:}$PATH" may be needed yesterday. And rvgn too.
<nckx>We never printed a ‘the following variable definitions may be needed:’ before 500 lines.
<nckx>Not here.
<civodul>we did
<civodul>i think
<civodul>but now i wonder if we're talking about the same wall
<nckx>Anyway, by it's gone, you meant: hint: Consider setting the necessary environment variables by running:
<kmicu>Let me update. I (and rvgn) could have a month old system.
<nckx>replaces it, right?
<civodul>nckx: yes
<kmicu>nckx: hint is at the end. I’m talking about a different message (not prefixed with Hint:…).
<nckx>kmicu: All these variables will be automatically set for you on Guix System. But there will always be the running shell (that you just used to guix pull) and any other open sessions; we can't change variables in those.
<nckx>Hence the hint.
<kmicu>I am not talking about guix hash hint. Thatn’s ok.
<nckx>We could also print ‘your computer needs to be restarted.’
<nckx>kmicu: Nor am I?
<nckx>I am talking about environment variables, old (the following may be needed…) and new (hint: source this profile) message.
<kmicu>I saw both at the same time ;)
<nckx>What's ‘not ok’ then?
<kmicu>Nothing is not ok. I’m asking about rationale behind ‘export PATH="/root/.config/guix/current/bin${PATH:+:}$PATH" may be needed’ during guix pull as root.
<kmicu>(On Guix System).
<nckx>(kmicu: oh, I read ‘I am not talking about guix hash hint. Thatn’s ok.’ as ‘something else isn't’, never mind.)
*kmicu is guix pulling e23b6a6 and then reconfigure to check the latest guix pull behavior.
<nckx>👍
<kmicu>(the guix pull could have been unusually long cuz I saw many messages about grafting git.)
*nckx is pulling root's guix.
*nckx wonders why you'd do that, but that's unrelated.
<kmicu>nckx: for the long time Guix System manual had this line ‘From then on, you can update GuixSD whenever you want by running guix pull as root’.
<nckx>Gnarf.
<nckx>Glad it's gone then.
<xavierm02>My guix is building webkitgtk and it's taking forever :(
<nckx>Webkitgtk will do that.
<playX>why linker can't find these two: https://pastebin.com/fTEkZWRC ? I installed LLVM and Clang from official guix packages
<civodul>xavierm02: you can interrupt it
<civodul>the build farm has it now: https://berlin.guix.gnu.org/8vf76wqkzcr8ajza70771vxac66rh6g7.narinfo
*nckx returns with good new—oh.
<xavierm02>civodul: Nice!
<kmicu>If guix desrcibe shows e24b6a6 and then guix pull uses e24b6a6 (and nothing changed on the system) then does Guix need to compute-guix-derivation once again and spin CPU at 100% for a minute?
*nckx smells a leading question 😛
<kmicu>That ‘export PATH="/root/.config/guix/current/bin${PATH:+:}$PATH" may be needed’ is not longer visible when guix pulling as root.
<xavierm02>kmicu: I've been told that it's because it doesn't remember the commit. But people seemed to agree that it should be added.
*kmicu rarely guix pulls.
<civodul>kmicu: ideally compute-guix-derivation would be a derivation (thus subject to memoization)
<kmicu>So it looks like guix pull executed by root looks differently than guix pull executed by a regular user on a default Guix System.
<civodul>unfortunately, that'd require nested derivations
<civodul>something Nix folks have been wanting forever
<nckx>kmicu: Interesting.
<nckx>And not because you've never pulled as root before, I'm guessing.
<nckx>(Which is the case here, but it's still running :-/ )
<kmicu>nckx: I pulled as root and regular user on a fresh system after guix pull on e24b6ab. Now hash guix and using fresh terminals to confirm.
<kmicu>guix pull on root shows me ‘Nothing to be done’ and then wall of ‘New in this revision’, guix desrcibe shows error on root.
<kmicu>‘failed to determine origin’.
<nckx>kmicu: That particular wall should be limited to n entries on new Guix, even if I don't know n.
<kmicu>I assume b/c PATH="/root/.config/guix/current/bin${PATH:+:}$PATH" is not set on Guix System by default?
<rekado_>civodul: I’m using call-with-container to run a GWL process in isolation. A process may specify a gexp. Can I extract all references from a gexp? (I need that to ensure that locations referenced by the gexp are mounted in the container.)
<rubic88>Does "guix system reconfigure my-system-config.scm" get run as unprivleged user or sudo?
<nckx>rubic88: It doesn't auto-sudo you if that's what you mean.
<civodul>rekado_: i have WIP for eval/container actually :-)
<nckx>rubic88: You'd usually run it as ’sudo guix system reconfigure’.
<civodul>lemme see
<nckx>rubic88: If that doesn't work, ‘sudo -E’.
<nckx>But I think that's not needed no more.
<civodul>rekado_: https://paste.debian.net/1087839/ it depends on the remove-eval patches
<rubic88>Got it. The manual indicates that I shouldn't edit /etc/config.scm directly (if my interpretation is correct), but rather edit a local copy.
<rekado_>civodul: thanks!
<civodul>rekado_: well i didn't mean we should remove eval; this should have read 'remote-eval' :-)
<rekado_>:)
<kmicu>After setting PATH="/root/.config/guix/current/bin${PATH:+:}$PATH" for root ‘guix describe’ and ‘guix pull’ works in the same way as for the regular user. An info to set that is not longer displayed during guix pull though like in the past.
<nckx>rubic88: No, that's not what it should say. If you name your system configuration /etc/config.scm and run ‘guix system reconfigure /etc/config.scm’, then /etc/config.scm is what you should edit. But you can put it wherever you like. Guix doesn't ‘fall back’ to /etc/config.scm or whatever. I use a different name. You could keep it in ~ if you prefer.
<nckx>kmicu: So second-hand bug fixed/notabug? Great. ☺
<kmicu>So the question is: why Guix System sets PATH for regular user but PATH="/root/.config/guix/current/bin${PATH:+:}$PATH is not set for root?
<rubic88>I'm reading "you must avoid that since that would not only void your warranty but also prevent you from rolling back to previous versions of your system" from https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/manual/en/html_node/Using-the-Configuration-System.html#Using-the-Configuration-System
<nckx>kmicu: No, that's not the case. sudo su -; echo $PATH
<nckx> /run/setuid-programs:/root/.config/guix/current/bin:/root/.guix-profile/bin:/run/current-system/profile/bin:/run/current-system/profile/sbin
<kmicu>nckx: that wasn’t set here (or for rvgn). 🤔 Is your Guix System default?
<nckx>rubic88: You're the second person to read that as ‘…including the system configuration’. Editing that is fine. Suggesting a less ambiguous wording is also fine ;-)
<rubic88>nckx: Got it, thanks.
<nckx>kmicu: It's not a VM from scratch if that's what you mean. It's more than 4 years old. But I don't muck about with (especially root's) PATH, and I've never used root's Guix anyway.
<nckx>So in theory it could be a skeleton regression (band name dibs) but that seems unlikely.
<kmicu>It could be user’s fault from the beginning.
*kmicu double checks login shells environments and su/sudo behaviour.
<nckx>So I've also completed ‘sudo guix pull’ on a new (<1 day) System, and it print the hint about sourcing …/etc/profile (which Guix can't do for you) but nothing else. Nothing wally.
<civodul>a tiny teeny wall
<civodul>a walllet?
*civodul wonders about the etymology of "wallet"
<kmicu>nckx: did you execute ‘sudo guix pull’ in a regular user’s shell? I only see green Hint about executing hash guix to update PATH.
<kmicu>(Nothing about sourcing /etc/profile. guix pull only gave 7 lines.)
<nckx>kmicu: I get that on subsequent pulls. That one was my first.
<nckx>(So root had no Guix; I had to use mine.)
<nckx>Sorry, no, ‘the system's’.
<kmicu>Anyway. I figured out rvgn and my issue.
<nckx>I still don't understand quite what it was but yay.
<kmicu>What an awful PEBKAC case. I’m deeply sorry folks. Thank you for staying calm and patient. I do not recommend working when there is above 30℃.$
<nckx>Ew. My sympathies.
<kmicu>nckx: well, su (without -) removes /root/.config/guix/current/bin from root’s path.
<ItsMarlin>Hi guix frendos
<ItsMarlin>just made something cool
<ItsMarlin>i turned my guix config into a literate thing with org mode
<ItsMarlin>got some bindings to visit it, and another to take the code from the org file into a .scm
<kmicu>A literate config is always cool ItsMarlin though the tradeoff is that it adds dependency on compilator to tangle the source code and you cannot edit files directly (when in a rush) ;)
<ItsMarlin>i like literate
<daf1234>ItsMarlin: super cool
*kmicu ’s going to do a penance after su kerfuffle.
<kmicu>sneek: later tell rvgn to highlight kmicu
<sneek>Okay.
<nckx>ItsMarlin: That is rad.
<nckx>civodul: I did notice that ‘guix pull’ (here at least) always hints ’After setting `PATH', run `hash guix' to…’
<nckx>The way that it's worded makes it sound like it should be conditional on the PATH hint having been printed.
<nckx>Which it wasn't.
<nckx>New user be like ‘After setting PATH? What? To what?’ 🤷
*nckx trying to larp new user ☝
*kmicu *whispers gently* and why guix pull cannot execute ‘hash guix’ at the end.
<rekado_>it’s a bash built-in.
*nckx *whispers back* how would that work if Guix is a child process of that shell.
<nckx>rekado_: Well, sure, but if that were the problem you could just (system* "bash" "-c" "hash" "guix") before you go cry yourself to sleep.
<kmicu>By sending some ancient ASCII escape codes or even spawn a new *working* shell? 🤷
<nckx>kmicu: That is hella unexpected and user unfriendly.
<rekado_>I would not want “guix pull” to spawn a sub-shell!
<nckx>guix pull; fg → no such job
<nckx>echo $unexported_variable_i_was_using → zip
<nckx>exit → hai I'm bash.
<nckx>I think you get the idea ;-)
<kmicu>Could hash guix be avoided with that new Guile Shell instead of Bash?
<nckx>kmicu: We could add a hack (and yes, let's use ANSI escape codes for extra icky, good plan 😛 ) but… why?
<nckx>Seems… disproportionate.
<nckx>‘hint: please do foo’ → reimplement custom shell
*nckx wants bash anyway.
<kmicu>Cuz we have computers for doing repeatable and trivial tasks. If fix is complex/expensive/ugly then nothing wrong with staying with the hint.
<nckx>Yeah but we have unixen to create more repeatable and trivial tasks.
<kmicu>(Also there’s no need for ‘hash nix’. So Guix gives worse experience in this area.)
<nckx>kmicu: Why is that, by the way?
<daf1234> (https://imgur.com/HyNgsyp) lol, you fuckers
***ChanServ sets mode: +o nckx
<civodul>nckx: the "hash guix" message is conditional
*kmicu ( ಠ_ಠ )
<nckx>What does that link say.
<civodul>kmicu: that's because Nix doesn't updated itself, no in that way at least
<civodul>it remains that you're right, regarding the UX
<kmicu>nckx: that’s the quote from the manual.
<nckx>kmicu: They imgur'd a quote from the manual?
<nckx>Oh, ne'er mind. PEBKAC-day.
<kmicu>nckx: yes, that snippet about private channels being so cool and then warning about using them.
<thomassgn>If I have a working system but want to "reinstall/reinit" an OS/Guix System with fs root in a different folder could I just use 'guix system init' as if I was installing a new system?
<thomassgn>folder/fs
<nckx>kmicu: In Nix or Guix? I'm confused, and wonder why that couldn't just be a link to text on a Web site that actually loads for anyone 😛
<daf1234>nckx: i can't link directly to that line, and I wanted it to be immediately recognizable that i pulled it from the manual
<nckx>civodul: Sure, but I'm saying it's not the same condition as ‘please change PATH’ or ‘please source new profile’, it's printed on its own, withouth context, where the ‘After’ makes no sense.
<nckx>daf1234: OK. It's just that imgur doesn't seem to like my freedom very much (I get an almost-empty page) and it wasn't clear who ‘you fuckers’ were (us?) so I was half-expecting something bad.
<daf1234>nah - i got a laugh out of it :-)
<kmicu>civodul: (I’m not about being wrong or right). I don’t know why some features exists in Guix; rationale for some design choices is sometimes difficult to find.
***ChanServ sets mode: -o nckx
<jackhill>It's true! Channels are soooo cool, but I've run into the gotcha. I'm currently trying to debug a problem that prevents mine from building that is currently beyond my Guile knowledge
<nckx>So which gotcha are we talking about, imgur-worthy folks?
<kmicu>daf1234: generally when entering a new community is not very kind or respectful to start with such expletive ;) Especially when we don’t see them in logs.
<daf1234>kmicu: sorry. won't happen againl.
<kmicu>nckx: literally ‘Warning: Before you, dear user, shout—“woow this is soooo coool!”—and publish your personal channel to the world, we would like to share a few words of caution’.
<nckx>kmicu: Thanks.
<jackhill>and the particular gotcha it mentions in the list of warnings, "_the compatibility burden is on
<jackhill> you_"
<jackhill>manual section 4.7.2
<nckx>I'm… underwhelmed, to be honest.
<nckx>Those are obvious ‘gotchas’ for any add-on or even library user.
<nckx>I mean, it's good that we point them out, but they're not… bad.
<rekado_>jackhill: what problem do you have with your channels?
<nckx>- Consider upstream patches; - We're not Linus Torvalds; - Don't bother your upstream's upstream.
<rekado_>is it just me or do lots of Python packages just not do the right thing in their “check” phase…?
<jackhill>oh, sure, I don't disagree. I'm just saying it's happed to me in real life.
<rekado_>all the Python packages I worked on this week ran 0 tests or had problems finding the just built modules.
<jackhill>rekado_: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-guix/2019-06/msg00091.html
<jackhill>(repl-version 0 0)
<jackhill>(exception misc-error (value #f) (value "Unbound variable: ~s") (value (mcron-service-type)) (value #f))
<nckx>daf1234: I'd like to add that I took no offence whatsoever, it's just that there was very little to go on to decide ’random new participant: troll or no?’ ☺
<jackhill>with https://gitlab.oit.duke.edu/jackhill/guix-at-duke/blob/master/guix-at-duke/services/endpoint-management.scm
<jackhill>♥ Guix
<daf1234>nckx: Yeah. I'll admit to using a poor choice of words.
*nckx .oO and random unopenable link: ‘valuable contribution or illegal type of porn?’
<baconicsynergy>I'm not using guix right now but I'm gonna hang out with you guys 'cause you're the best
<nckx>We need a Testimonials tab.
<baconicsynergy>^
<nckx>And bad stock headshots.
<baconicsynergy>lol
<str1ngs>before and after headshots
<nckx>😃
<jackhill>lol!
<nckx>Guix: not even once
<nckx>(well, only once, because we're reproducible, badum tss.)
*nckx bans self.
<baconicsynergy>i giggled
<ItsMarlin>hey
<nckx>o/
<ItsMarlin>what is shepherd's suspend command?
<civodul>kmicu: re design choices, some of the design choices are scattered in papers, blog posts, emails, and sometimes they're just not written
<nckx>ItsMarlin: I just echo foo > /sys/power/state
<civodul>perhaps we should write a book, "The Grand Scheme of Guix"
<ItsMarlin>oh
<ItsMarlin>thanks nckx
<nckx>Not saying that's the one true way, but there's less magic involved than you may thing (or: the magic is all handled by the kernel anyway), so any ‘suspend’ wrapper would really just do that anyway. It could also start/stop services but I don't think Shepherd provides support for that yet anyway.
<rekado_>civodul: I’m *still* waiting for the new edition of the book with the now outdated chapter on the GWL to be released. If we do write a book let’s not publish via Springer press…
<nckx>If you're not me, you also may *think.
<civodul>rekado_: heh, was it the book written with Pjotr? i had forgotten about that
<rekado_>yeah, the very same
<rekado_>the GWL is now barely recognizable :-/
<rekado_>but I hope that some of the ideas survive
<civodul>it's a good problem to have tho, no?
<civodul>i gather it's been moving fast lately
<rekado_>I don’t know. I guess it’s neutral.
<rekado_>the GWL is still trying to find it’s identity
<rekado_>I feel it’s getting closer to that goal.
<civodul>heh
<rekado_>jackhill: I can reproduce your channel problem.
<jackhill>rekado_: thanks, good to know it's not just me :)
<civodul>jackhill, rekado_: the error in full is: gnu/services/admin.scm:161:21: Unbound variable: mcron-service-type
<civodul>i did: echo '(primitive-load "/gnu/store/vf892np8mnh2zx9dppcv9k25xk648n2d-inferior-script.scm")' | "/gnu/store/j7vxgnaqwimrzsnd8zhq9x1jdp7afl0s-guix-ca45da9fc/bin/guix" "repl"
<jackhill>civodul: oh!!
<civodul>there's a cycle: mcron -> base -> admin -> mcron
<jackhill>excellent, I was wondering how to get more informattion
<civodul>4252dace19945f56192477e8cb07973c20a526ba is the culprit
<kmicu>Did any of you benchmark Bash to check whether caching is so beneficial that disabling it and avoiding hash guix is a worse alternative? ;)
<nckx>😃
<nckx>This really bugs you doesn't it.
<jackhill>civodul: thanks for debugging. Could the publish service be moved into its own module?
<rekado_>isn’t that just a one-time thing?
<rekado_>after the first “guix pull” it won’t be needed again
<civodul>yeah
<civodul>jackhill: yes, we should do something like that, maybe moving it to admin.scm would work
<civodul>it'll break the API though, which isn't great
<jackhill>yeah
<civodul>tricky
<jackhill>I don't like breaking API. On the other had it looks to me like it currently isn't used outside of (gnu service base) in Guix proper based on `grep --exclude=.git -ir guix-publish-service .`
<jackhill>would you like me to open a bug?
<civodul>yes please
<civodul>that'd be great
<jackhill>ok, I'll do that ☺
<civodul>we should probably just revert 4252dace19945f56192477e8cb07973c20a526ba in the meantime
<rekado_>hmm: “Redistributions of the software in any form, and publications based on work performed using the software should include the following citation as a reference: …”
<rekado_> https://github.com/jeffdaily/parasail/blob/master/LICENSE.md
<rekado_>what does “should” mean?
<civodul>it sounds more of an obligation than "please cite ..."
<rekado_>bah
<rekado_>I hate when people make up new licenses because they think nobody else had their idea before
<civodul>might be worth emailing the author to suggest a clarification...
<rekado_>so many bad licenses
<nckx>It's *probably* *intended* as a request considering the use of ‘must’ elsewhere. But you know where this will end, unfortunately.
<nckx>Yes.
<civodul>kmicu: BTW, re 'guix pull', there's a bit of design rationale discussed at the bottom of https://gnu.org/software/guix/blog/2018/multi-dimensional-transactions-and-rollbacks-oh-my/
<rekado_>I also just found that we distribute non free software; the author of loomR purposefully declared its license as GPL-3 to pacify R’s license checker, while the actual license according to a Github issue is actually the non-free DBAD license.
<rekado_>see https://github.com/mojaveazure/loomR/pull/24
<nckx>o_O
<bavier>that's some underhanded *** right there
<civodul>rekado_: that'd terrible
<civodul>i mean, DESCRIPTION is binding in a way
<kmicu>At least they are clear about their intentions.
<civodul>right, but until someone asked, you could assume that DESCRIPTION holds the truth
<rekado_>yes
<nckx>What a dick.
<rekado_>in response they have changed the DESCRIPTION in the “develop” branch.
<rekado_>nckx: (wonders how “Richard” becomes “Dick”; and then how “Paul” became “Richard”)
<Marlin[m]>hi
<Marlin[m]>what's happening
<kmicu>Do you plan to remove loomR from Guix now? They have clarified it’s not really GPL.
*kmicu wonders how in such cases Guix/Nix should handle sub-s still available on build servers.
<rekado_>kmicu: yes, I’m removing it.
<kmicu>(To avoid any legal issues (which have very low propability cuz those folks don’t look like copyright trolls.))
<rekado_>done
<nckx>kmicu: You can't mislead somebody as to the licence of your own software and then sue them. There's no *legal* necessity to remove it from Guix, but I don't blame rekado_ for saying ‘nope’.
<nckx>The author even admitted to lying so there's no need to remove binaries.
<rekado_>I don’t want this to be missed in future updates.
<rekado_>so I thought it’s better to remove it now.
<kmicu>Well, knowing how random courts decisions can be… better safe than sorry.
<nckx>kmicu: Unfortunuatly, certainly winning a lawsuit costs $ too.
<rekado_>kmicu: we did not violate the declared license.
<civodul>rekado_: that makes sense to me
<Marlin[m]>somebody doing fraud?
<nckx>kmicu: There's this meme in software circles that courts are random and weird. They're not. But I agree with rekado_.
<kmicu>nckx: They are. Especially low level courts. Especially in post-soviet countries. ;)
<nckx>Heh. ‘Courts.’
*nckx just finished writing about show trials in pre-post-soviet countries.
<bavier>Marlin[m]: re openspades, I made a package last night in a new personal channel, I'll publish it later if you'd like to use it
<kmicu>nckx: Some folks to prove that here filed cases in three different courts and got three different decisions.
<Marlin[m]><bavier "Marlin: re openspades, I made a "> :D thanks
<Marlin[m]>wanna play later?
<rekado_>this is the second time I’ve removed proprietary software from Guix … after I introduced it some time before :-/
<rekado_>first instance is here: 628bd9b8a7877ffe7b53328c1d161ba543f0b0b8
<bavier>Marlin[m]: ha, sure :)
<nckx>kmicu: I'm sure they did. That's not hard to do or proof of ‘randomness’.
<nckx>Depends entirely on the case & the verdict.
<bavier>Marlin[m]: had to do some playtesting earlier, first time I've played a game like that; pretty fun
<kmicu>We have common law here so decisions should be mostly the same.
<Marlin[m]>ye
<Marlin[m]>Hey guys
<Marlin[m]>any suggestions on stuff that needs packaging?
<civodul>s/guys/people/
<nckx>kmicu: Common law? That's horrible. My condelences ☹
*nckx → away.
<rekado_>Marlin[m]: or s/guys/guix/
<kmicu>Shogun is also scientific software… bad scientist.
<Marlin[m]>oh i said guys instead of guix
<Marlin[m]>i'm a terrible person
<rekado_>“parasail” is also scientific software
<bavier>Marlin[m]: all friendly reminders
<civodul>indeed
<bavier>Marlin[m]: there's https://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:Guix/Wishlist but I don't know how many of those are easy
<Marlin[m]>thanks
<Marlin[m]>i wanna practice my packaging skeels
<civodul>perhaps there are applications you'd like to use and that are missing?
<rekado_>(there are several thousand packages on CRAN and Bioconductor that need(?) packaging. And the importer usually does a fine job at producing valid package expressions.)
<Marlin[m]>haven't missed much lately
<Marlin[m]>i think i could try smplayer and smtube
*rekado_ has enough of software; goes to water the pumpkin plants
<Marlin[m]>oh
<Marlin[m]>I'll package searx
<Marlin[m]>i wanna see if self hosting it makes it faster
<rubic88>Attempted to configure ntp before I realized it's already loaded in %desktop-services: https://paste.debian.net/plain/1087851
<rubic88>Is there any way I can change ntp configuration without unbundling ntp from %desktop-services?
*kmicu ’s squashes are very green and almost look healthy (after recent hailstorm).
<Marlin[m]>:D
<Marlin[m]>pumpkin
<kmicu>rubic88: there is modify-services. Maybe that could help.
<rubic88>kmicu: Cool, thanks for the pointer.
<jackhill>civodul: done: #36207
<civodul>thanks, jackhill!
<bavier>rvgn: any reason you added 3 or 4 votes to items on the wishlist rather than 1?
<civodul>Marlin[m]: having searx would be great
<civodul>then you could even train your service implementation skills :-)
<kmicu>rubic88: I fount a snippet https://github.com/Millak/guix-config/blob/93bd722c02083b851b45ee89f9f12d91227da226/E2140_guix_config.scm#L163
<kmicu>(Cuz modify-services can be difficult to understand for folks unfamiliar with Guile).
<Marlin[m]>ye
<rubic88>kmicu: Thanks, that's very helpful. I was scratching my head trying to figure it out from the manual.
<Marlin[m]>can lisp be easily used instead of C for performance stuff?
<kmicu>We can compile to C. Like Chicken Scheme https://call-cc.org/
<Marlin[m]>oh
<Marlin[m]>thanks :))
<kmicu>(Racket is moving to Chez Scheme https://scheme.com/ to gain some performance.)
<Marlin[m]>there is a game i wanna try making. gonna use lisp everywhere i can
<nalkri>I'm far from an expert but I hear the upcoming Guile 3 will have a huge performance boost too
<Marlin[m]>why don't people use lisp for everything? :P
<nalkri>Masochism
<kmicu>(technomancy is making games in https://fennel-lang.org/ and Lowe2d.)
<daf1234>Speaking of speed, I'm extremely impressed with guix perf. It searches the package database *much* faster than nix.
<Marlin[m]>it does
<Marlin[m]>i wanna make a free clone of Super Smash Bros :P
<nalkri>I hadn't seen Fennel before, thanks kmicu
<Marlin[m]>fennel looks good
<nalkri>I wonder if I could use Fennel for Minetest
<Marlin[m]><nalkri "I wonder if I could use Fennel f"> yeah, maybe that would work
<nalkri>I'll give it a shot, should be fun :)
<Marlin[m]>ye
<Marlin[m]>i wanna try making some mods for minetest
<Marlin[m]>great game
<Marlin[m]>and isn't proprietary
<Marlin[m]>Minecraft gave me trouble
<Marlin[m]>i had bought it in the past
<Marlin[m]>and stopped playing
<Marlin[m]>I tried getting my account back, seems like it was lost in the middle of their switching accounting service issue
<Marlin[m]>basically, they didn't help me to recover my account
<Marlin[m]>i'm not buying it again :P, being microsoft now doesn't help
*kmicu saw jackhill on #faif and for a momemnt thought #guix buffer looks strange.
<nalkri>I prefer Minetest to Minecraft and not just philosophically, though the mob mods were pretty dodgy last time I tried them
<Marlin[m]>minetest needs looots of work on the mobs
<Marlin[m]>the only decent mobs are the mineclone ones
<nalkri>mostly it needs breedable cats with realistic coat colour genetics
<nalkri>But then I'd never leave the flat
<Marlin[m]>we could try getting into one of the major mob mods and helping
<rubic88>Adding modify-services: guix system: error: more than one target service of type 'dbus'
<kmicu>rubic: did you add (modify-services %desktop-services) and at the same time another %desktop-services entry exists too?
<rubic>kmicu: Correct. Remove the other %desktop-services?
<kmicu>rubic: yep, use (modify-services %desktop-services) in place of the %desktop-services and guix system reconfigure should work.
<rubic>kmicu: Original https://paste.debian.net/1087861/ <- Just paste the (modify-services %desktop ...) form in place of the last %desktop-services?
<rubic>^^^ appears to be working, thanks!
<kmicu>Glad it works!
<nckx>Marlin[m]: Self-hosting Searx is great (and I look forward to seeing it in Guix!), but a private instance provides only part of the benefits. There's no ‘cover noise’, and a static IP makes you even more trackable than cookies.
*jackhill waves to kmicu
<nckx>(If all you want is a pretty good search engine aggregator, that's fine.)
<Marlin[m]>i wish there were more YaCy Instances
<daf1234>Playing around with `guix describe` and seeing some strange output. Running this (http://termbin.com/e6huv) I just see 'name: guix' for every package.
<daf1234>(running from a home directory)
<daf1234>seems I only get the intended output with the 'human' formatting
<daf1234>Seems this issue was reported a while back, and last updated in March. Issue 34884. (https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-guix/2019-03/msg00156.html)
<daf1234>Not familiar with the bug-tracking interface. Can't tell if it's been marked resolved or not.
<cbaines>daf1234, doesn't look to be resolved to me, I'm seeing the odd behaviour you describe
<cbaines>the different formats look odd, the human format displays information about the profile manifest, the other formats display information about the channels
<Marlin[m]>Well, now people are saying guix's logo looks like an uterus
<bavier>hardly
<Marlin[m]>Hey
<Marlin[m]>Where is the package for openspades?
<bavier>Marlin[m]: still at $dayjob, I'll push my channel repo in the few hours and send a pm
<nckx>These people have clearly never seen a uterus.
<Marlin[m]>thanks bavier
<kmicu>Is Savannah down? (fatal: unable to connect to git.savannah.gnu.org: here).
*kmicu is playing Toto - Savannah in the meantime.
<rekado_>kmicu: I can connect just fine.
<kmicu>Thank you. Must be something local.
<pkill9>how do you send a message to stderr in guile?
<kmicu>I can ping it but git.savannah.gnu.org[0: 209.51.188.201]: gives errno=Connection refused LOL.
<kmicu>Does https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/tree/ load for you?
<rekado_>pkill9: (format (current-error-port) "this goes to stderr: ~a" 123)
<rekado_>kmicu: no.
<kmicu>Thank you. I cannot git fetch only from Savannah so I will play some elevator music and wait.
<nckx>kmicu: Which URL are you using?
<nckx>I got only 502 responses from the nginx front-end yesterday but ssh: worked fine. Maybe so will git: .
<pkill9>rekado_: thanks
*civodul tweaks bootstrap.scm so that bash, mkdir, tar, and xz are downloaded
<ober>does guile not have helpers to do all that at the system level?
<rekado_>civodul: one step closer to Guix on Debian
<rekado_>ober: to do what?
<tune>does guix have anything like home-manager for nix yet? I'm hearing about it lately and it seems kinda cool
<pkill9>tune: someone started making something like that https://framagit.org/tyreunom/system-configuration/blob/master/modules/home.scm
<pkill9>can't remember who
<tune>hm okay
<pkill9>actually I'm not sure how similar it is to home-manager as I have never used home-manager, but it manages the home directory
<tune>I only know a little about home manager, but it sounds like people are able to declaratively configure their programs then
<tune>like .config type stuff
<nckx>How can I reboot from bournish/early-boot Guile?
<civodul>rekado_: yup! that's on core-updates
<civodul>building stuff now...
<civodul>besides, i have terrible bandwidth from berlin.guix.gnu.org
<civodul>is there something special today?
<civodul>or is it just me?
<nckx>Hm, /proc is mounted already. Maybe I can write to sysrq-trigger.
<civodul>like downloading LO at 65KiB/s
<civodul>nckx: you can type (reboot) :-)
<nckx>
<civodul>or just "reboot" if it's bournish
<nckx>Or I can type (reboot)
<nckx>or just "reboot" if it's bournish
<nckx>Thank you civodul.
<nckx>Oh, there was a control character in my first attempt. Don't mind me. I'm just stupid. 😒
*nckx reboots.
<civodul>bye, nckx ;-)
*nckx speaks to you from beyond the grave
<nckx>(It was a different box.)
<ober>hmm sbcl is busted on here.
<rekado_>civodul: I know of no network maintenance work *today*.
<rekado_>there will be network maintenance work on the 19th of June between 5am and 9am, which will likely affect access to berlin.
<civodul>rekado_: ok, well, dunno!
<civodul>i'm watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2iShmUTEl8
<civodul>it's just awesome!
<civodul>by carl_dong
<nckx>It is!
<daf1234>What's the best way to learn Guile - for someone with a fairly strong Clojure background?
<civodul>crazy
<civodul>rekado_: did you watch it? ↑
<rekado_>I’m at minute 9 right now
<rekado_>it would fit well on bootstrappable.org
<rekado_>9:50 –> there’s the word I’ve been waiting for
<Marlin1113>hey guix
<Marlin1113>i'm trying to package luarocks
<Marlin1113>my log build error has this in the end "--enable-fast-install" "--build=x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu"
<Marlin1113>i think this "unknown-linux-gnu" parameter is giving errors
<Marlin1113>probably custom kernel
<Marlin1113>what should i do?
<bavier`>Marlin1113: is the configure script not recognizing the parameter?
<Marlin1113>dunno, seems like it. i'll send a paste
<civodul>rekado_: it would definitely be a good fit for bootstrappable.org
<rekado_>sharing it with my colleagues now
<rekado_>it’s a great video
<Marlin[m]>here is the error
<Marlin[m]> http://dpaste.com/2BZVQWE
<Marlin[m]>a.txt imba
<Marlin[m]> https://luarocks.org/
<Marlin[m]>this is what i'm trying to get
<Marlin[m]>it's like pip
<xavierm02_>Hey. How do I use a local directory as a channel? I used file:// but it fails to build /gnu/store/<hash>-<channel-name I gave in the config.scm>-profile.drv
<xavierm02_>It fails when I guix pull
<rekado_>xavierm02_: do you have more information that you can share? The actual error message would be helpful. Consider sending email to help-guix@gnu.org
<xavierm02_>I I managed to get an error message. It seems to be because I have my config.scm at the root at this stuff, and it requires stuff that comes from another channel.
<xavierm02_>How does guix handle channels? Does it just read every scm file in it?
<rekado_>if your channel depends on another channel it needs to declare that.
<dongcarl>civodul: Thanks for the shoutout on the mailing list. :-)
<xavierm02_>my channel doesn't depend on another channel. I wanted to have a unique repo for my packages and my config.scm but apparently, that's not really possible
<rekado_>xavierm02_: oh, then I misunderstood your problem.
<rekado_>we need more information to be able to help you.
<xavierm02_>rekado_ : I fixed it. I had my config.scm and packages/mypackage.scm in the same git repo and I couldn't make it understand that config.scm wasn't stuff that gui pul should read. So I just splitted it into two repos
<rekado_>well, that’s just a workaround. I don’t think this is actually necessary.
<xavierm02_>Well if I made the channel point to the root of the repo, it took my config.scm, and if I pointed it to the subdirectory with packages, it told me that it couldn't find a repository
<kmicu>nckx: I was able to git fetch guix repo after a few minutes.
<civodul>hey dongcarl! i hope you don't mind that post :-)
<kmicu>daf1234: fast reading Guile manual should be enough.
<rekado_>xavierm02_: again, without more information about the actual error and the organisation of the repository there’s little we can do to help.
<xavierm02_>For some reason my guix pull is taking forever building guix-packages
<civodul>dongcarl: i was amazed so i wanted to share
<civodul>somehow i got your nick wrong earlier
<rekado_>xavierm02_: this means that the build farm hasn’t gotten around to compiling the package modules yet.
<rekado_>xavierm02_: if you don’t want to build this locally just try again later.
<rekado_>Marlin[m]: they probably have a custom configure script which doesn’t behave like the conventional configure script of the GNU build system.
<rekado_>Marlin[m]: you may have to replace the configure phase.
<dongcarl>civodul: awwww, thank you :-) If you have recommendations about what to add, I can do so for my next talk!
<civodul>dongcarl: i think everything is there, which is quite an achievement for a 15mn talk
<dongcarl>civodul: Good to hear :-)
<civodul>:-)
<daf1234><kmicu> thanks
<Marlin[m]><rekado_ "Marlin: you may have to replace "> oh, okay
<Marlin[m]>i'll look into how to do that later
<Marlin[m]>thanks
<rekado_>Marlin[m]: search for “(replace 'configure” for inspiration.
<xavierm02_>Alright. I think I understood what my problem was: It pulls from commited things, and I expected it to pull from the current files. Is there a way to do this?
<xavierm02_>guix pull gives me a 502
<xavierm02_>http error
<nckx>xavierm02_: Savannah's having trouble with their nginx proxy. Use git:// instead of https://.