<roptat>because the rule for plural is different depending on languages
<roptat>some languages also have more than singular and plural
<dvn>i have not been able to run "guix package -u" with success in the past few weeks because it fails on building qtwebkit -- now i've tried disabling upgrading every package i can think of that might use qtwebkit, but it *still* tries (and fails)
<dvn>i mean by "disabling" eg. --do-not-upgrade=qtwebkit
<civodul>roptat: yeah i know, but i thought there was a way out in this case
<dvn>is there a way to see all the package `guix package -u` will try to upgrade?
<baimafeima>roptat, how do you evaluate haiku in terms of its values? open source vs free software, pragmatism vs ethics-freedom approach
<roptat>baimafeima: I don't think they have strong opinions on these subjects
<roptat>they have non-free drivers, but according to the devs, it should be easy not to add them
<roptat>they're more focused on "usability" and "ux" which is different from pragmatism
<baimafeima>roptat, I see, I'm attracted to projects such as Haiku and Solus (a linux-based one) for the out-of-the-box approach where there OS is not getting in your way, but ethically I'm much closer to GuixSD but cannot use it very well because it's too difficult
<baimafeima>roptat, usability and ux is different from pragmatism?
<roptat>it's a bit fuzzy in my mind, but they usually prefer to have their own integrated tools rather than using tools they can't controll
<baimafeima>roptat, I think then Solus and Haiku OS are very similar in that aspect
<roptat>every language has its package manager nowadays
<baimafeima>roptat, isn't there a risk then that a package installed from another package manager such as pip conflicts with a natively packaged one?
<roptat>mostly because distros don't update their packages often enough, or there are too many packages to include them in a distro
<roptat>it can happen, and it's hard to debug, so they usually have some "environment" mechanism (setting/unsetting environment variables)
<roptat>(for python I think it's separate from pip though)
<roptat>it also allows you to work on incompatible projects
<baimafeima>roptat, I see, if I were to use guix (provided I get it to install without having it officially packaged), is there a risk that an application installed via guix would conflict with any native packages I have installed in solus?
<roptat>less than with pip, because guix package are completely independent from your host system
<baimafeima>are they sandboxed like in a flatpak and could I deinstall it without trace as well?
<roptat>no, they just don't know about /usr, /bin or /lib
<baimafeima>I'm trying to understand what motives Solus as opposed to a system like GuixSD
<rekado>“I will stress here something that is very important to me - I am not a free software developer, I am an open source software engineer. I'm not in this to effect and implement a sociopolitical agenda.”
<rekado>by acknowledging the political implications of what we do we can at least choose the direction of the political effect our actions have.
<baimafeima>rekado, I agree, every action is political, but many choose to stay away from politics because they don't care or because they don't want to associate themselves with a particular form of politics
<baimafeima>it seems to me that Ikey, the Solus founder, must have had bad interactions with free software activists or developrs
<jlicht>baimafeima: taking any action (or indeed, no action) is always political. "Staying away from politics" is impossible in that sense.
<baimafeima>but I am trying to understand why he thinks the way he does but I have trouble understanding because I feel ethically much closer to FSF
<baimafeima>but pragmatically close to Solus (this is the easiest system I have used as a beginner)
<baimafeima>jlicht, I absolutely agree, I'm just trying to understand his post
<roptat>it will be closer to actually installing it on a system, but the installation of the system is a bit harder than installing the package manager on a foreign distro
<roptat>you have to setup your hard disk, network, run a bunch of additional commands and then actually run the "guix system" command. From a foreign distribution, you can simply run that "guix system" command
<roptat>(it's a different command though: installing guixsd requires you to run "guix system init", but to build a vm, you can run "guix system vm")
<janneke>civodul: just to let you know that i think wip-bootstrap is functionally finished. there's no hurry, just wondering about the next step, we probably want to collapse it into a few commits (or maybe 1?). how shall we go about that?
<atw>janneke: congrats! Today is John McCarthy's birthday, fun fact
<dustyweb>is there anything you think I should change about the design?
<dustyweb>as said at the bottom, it's not doing some things like compression/mutability (those can be composed with it but aren't done in the spec itself) but I wonder if I've had any oversights in the design that should be corrected
<civodul>dustyweb: not having mutability is fine IMO, though it raises garbage-collection issues
<civodul>re convergent encryption, it might be worth noting that it's vulnerable to "confirmation attacks" (where you can tell whether a server stores an item you also have)
<civodul>which is OK in some cases, and maybe not in others
<dustyweb>civodul: ah yeah, I just pushed some information about that
<dustyweb>civodul: and also "learn-the-rest-of-the-information" attacks :)