<marusich>Apteryx, I believe that if you can compile GNU libc on mac (using CLANG and the Xcode stuff that macOS comes with, wich contains non-free software), you can use it on macOS to compile programs. But you cannot use it to build programs that will run on the x86_64-darwin system.
<marusich>If you get that far, you will still only be able to use it to build programs that run on linux or herd systems, I think.
<marusich>That's because GNU libc serves as an interface between the kernel and application software - it abstracts the kernel's interface away - and the GNU libc library is only designed to do this for linux and hurd kernels.
<Apteryx>Is there no linux emulation layer available for macOS?
<Apteryx>but now I'm just reading the latest replies to it; quite interesting.
<marusich>I've noticed that "highlight-symbol-at-point" will not highlight symbol "foo" when it shows up as "#$foo"
<marusich>This is unfortunate, because I would like Emacs to show me places in code where symbol "foo" gets ungexp'd
<marusich>Is there a simple way to tell highlight-symbol-at-point to highlight those cases, also?
<bill-auger>at the GNU hackers meeting ludo spoke of a guixsd ISO image - i do not see this on the website nor any instructions on the wiki of how to bake one - is there a prebult ISO available for download? or does anyone know how to create one?
<bill-auger>or alternatively is it possible to have GRUB boot the xz image from the HD ? i.e. is there yet any way to install guixsd without USB?
<bill-auger>chroot install from another partition? anything?
<bill-auger>ive considered booting guixsd in qemu with the physical disk mounted passthrough - but have not attempted anything so inelegant yet
<marusich>bill-auger, see info '(guix)Invoking guix system'
<marusich>and info '(guix)Building the Installation Image'
<marusich>So, putting those together, I believe you might be able to build a bootable ISO-9660 installer image by doing something like this from the Guix source directory:
<marusich>guix system disk-image --file-system-type=iso9660 gnu/system/install.scm
<bill-auger>i also see a command `dd if=$(guix system disk-image my-os.scm) of=/dev/sdc` that is intended for /dev/sdc to be a removable USB stick - is there any reason why would that same command not work if /dev/sdc was an internal physical disk ?
<bill-auger>and another like: guix system init my-os-config.scm /mnt - it seems like there could be many different ways to accomplish an install without USB
<Apteryx>Can I use savannah to host one-off scripts?
<marusich>I would like to find out what will be substituted when calling ungexp on a derivation. Does it expand to the derivation's store path, or the store path of the output of the derivation? More importantly, I'm curious to know how I am supposed to investigate and answer questions like that on my own. It's...not very easy to experiment in the REPL, perhaps because I don't know how to experiment well.
<marusich>Basically it'd be nice to be able to "see" what the gexp will look like when I've called "ungexp" on the various parts inside of it. The manual, as far as I can tell, doesn't tell me what the result of calling ungexp on a derivation will be, the code is non-trivial to read, and I'm having trouble experimenting in the REPL, since I'm not exactly sure how to go about it.
<marusich>OK, I guess I was blind. The documentation says that a derivation will be replaced by its output file name.
<cbaines>Hey CompanionCube, it might be related to the PERL5LIB environment variable? When I packaged ikiwiki, I only got as far as getting it to build a site, and I didn't try the CGI script.
<efraim>hmm, qtlocation just failed for me on aarch64
<rama_dan>basically i just saw Guix again yesterday and was impressed by all the stuff it can do
<rama_dan>so now i'm thinking maybe i could use Guix(SD) for my "devops" needs with my SaaS business
<rama_dan>but i'm very much clueless about "low-level" linux/unix stuff and virtualization and so on
<rama_dan>and of course, i'm vaguely concerned that Guix's "ideological purity" might cause a problem in the long-run. For example, maybe something i need wouldn't be available, or something
<rama_dan>i guess that would be the most common type of problem someone might have
<kmicu>It’s a libre software you can add whatever you want including binary blobs, but do not expect Guix’s resources to contribute or do it for you. If that’s the issue then consider Nix(OS).
<rama_dan>kmicu yeah.. well, it's understandable if you don't want to contribute to non-free software maintaining its grip on the world :) .. but on the other hand, it would feel harsh/silly to refuse to help someone because of that
<rama_dan>so, i guess it's understandable "both ways"
<kmicu>Helping with binary blobs requires time, time that could be allocated on libre work. From that perspective there is nothing silly in refusing to help with proprietary problems. It’s not forbidden of course, but you can have difficulties with finding a person willing to help.
<kmicu>(FYI I am a former Nix(OS) user and my intention is to help you. Nix(OS) has support for plenty of proprietary stuff out–of–the–box (including OracleJDK).)
<kmicu>(That’s a drawback for me, but could be an advantage for you.)
<rama_dan>kmicu sure, but helping with anything in any context requires time that could also be spent otherwise :) .. and any time someone helps someone else, he's potentially choosing not to make the world better instead
<rama_dan>but generally people don't refrain from helping others because they *could* use that time to make the world better in some way - in fact, you could argue that helping someone makes the world better too
<rama_dan>and say, "libre software advocacy", is all about making the world better, right?
<kmicu>That’s a bit of a stretch. By helping Apple to put more blobs everywhere I do not help. By helping Oracle to put more OracleJDK in more places I do not help.
<rama_dan>kmicu it happens on an individual level though, right? you're directly helping a person, that just happens to need a naughty binary blob from Evil MegaCorp to accomplish something
<rama_dan>and to be clear, i'm not denying Apple and Oracle are evil - of course they are
<rama_dan>but as we can see, even if you refuse to help someone with something proprietary, because of your principles, there's still room for reasonably disagreeing with that choice
<kmicu>I harm myself and everyone around in the long run. It’s like buying cigarettes to my kids, b/c they want/need them. I will not help with that. ;)
<rama_dan>kmicu that's one (somewhat biased :p) way of seeing it :). another would be: "i'm helping this guy with this nasty proprietary thing even though i find the corporation behind it disgusting, because this guy really needs help and i'm one of the very few people in the world who can provide it"
<rama_dan>.. and you can even think that the help results in good things, like someone's business being more capable of providing ordinary folks with secure jobs
<rama_dan>anyhow, i find Guix more promising than Nix
<kmicu>If you put GNU–topics aside it’s the same thing.
<rama_dan>kmicu sure, but if someone needs a proprietary thing, and he doesn't get it, that doesn't necessarily contribute to more libre businesses popping up.. maybe the guy just doesn't achieve what he wants/needs to, and maybe that contributes to people losing their jobs, and whatever.. there's lots of things that could happen
<kmicu>Yeah, but that works in both ways it could also result in more libre businesses and more libre jobs.
<rama_dan>well, your argument was based on the assumption of a positive outcome.. now even your wording acknowledges that might not happen
<rama_dan>it's impossible to know whether some random particular refusal to help someone results in good things or bad things
<kmicu>Your argument was based on the assumption of a negative outcome.
<rama_dan>ok, let's put it this way: you shouldn't refuse to help someone because you assume your refusal will have a positive effect on the world, because you just can't know whether that's the case
<rama_dan>as it seems we've established, we can't know the resulting effect
<rama_dan>and overall, if your actions are guided by the idea of making the world better, you can do it both ways: sometimes your positive contribution is using libre software and, say, giving money to libre businesses.. and sometimes your positive contribution is just helping someone who needs help (even if it involves distasteful binaries)
<rama_dan>also, if someone "gets burned" for using Guix(SD) because he ends up needing help but then won't get it because it involves something proprietary, that's actually detrimental to libre software becoming more widely used
<kmicu>We all have big todo lists and we spend time on things with highest priorities. So if I can choose to work on libre stuff or help with some proprietary problem then it is highly probable I will choose the former.
<rama_dan>kmicu sure, but now you're talking about (time) preferences, not principles
<rama_dan>sure, but libre software is all about principles, right? :)
<rama_dan>kmicu i'd use Guix only in a server environment, so WiFi wouldn't be a problem
<rama_dan>is it ~safe to assume everything would be fine on servers?
<kmicu>It should be fine, b/c the most blobs is in peripherals.
<kmicu>I need to make something clear: I am a #guix user. What I wrote is my impression of #guix community. Maybe I am wrong and Guix folks will help you with proprietary stuff. But I did not see much of that on #guix or #replicant channels.
<rama_dan>kmicu well, i appreciate your patience in the discussion
<rama_dan>and i hope people will read it and perhaps become more amenable to helping people even when it involves distasteful binaries, since that's what i think someone who's consistent about the principle of making the world better would do, and because *assuming* the help would have a negative effect on the world is not a good reason to refuse
<kmicu>My point was only to inform you that you can have troubles with support here and #nixos should be more helpful with proprietary matters. I do not share your view stated above :)
<lfam>The `guix environment guix` example is a little arcane due to the repetition. Another example is `guix environment hello`, which adds the dependencies of the hello program to your environment.
<TaoHansen[m]>lfam: what i don't understand is why `guix environment guix` is necessary when other packages install and run without complaint. does this have something to do with guix being unable to recursively know itself?
<lfam>Basically, `guix pull` is different from how other packages are built
<TaoHansen[m]>i think it was rekado who told me guix was unable to know its own hash.
<lfam>It's true that any package is unable to know its own hash (adding the hash would change the hash...)
<lfam>I can't really give a good explanation of how `guix pull` works and its limitations, but you may get a good answer here, or on <email@example.com>. You might also search the mailing list archives for previous discussion
<lfam>We know it's a weak point of Guix and are slowly working to improve it