<Salt>I'm currently compiling Guix to bootstrap Guix and finally got through dependency hell, however, it now is trying to download packages and our HPC's build machine is not net accessible. Is there a way to download-only or somehow skip this step? Thanks!
<lfam>efraim: That's a pretty good price for the specs, but I wonder if it is designed to handle high loads. I found that many of the cheaper boards are designed without consideration of thermal regulation
<cehteh>lfam: its not the boot, but wireless and other stuff
<lfam>cehteh: Yeah, but for a laptop is typically just the wireless, since they lack esoteric wired networking and I/O interfaces
<lfam>But recently I noticed lots of people claim that linux-libre could only boot old hardware, which is incorrect
<cehteh>but lack of wireless make installation already a pain
<lfam>I hadn't heard of built-in sound cards not working for linux-libre but it would be good to know
<cehteh>some esoteric sound adapters need blobed firmware
<lfam>Yes, the wireless issue is a blocker for many people, like I said
<cehteh>esp some high quality ones, but these are uncommon
<lfam>Professional external sound cards, but not built-in cards, right?
<cehteh>dunno if these are on board on a few boards, i am not that much into hardware
<cehteh>and old times winmodem stuff, using sonudcard as modem :D but we are talking about actual use cases
<cehteh>anyway .. i'd really like if people recognite that free software was meant for the freedom of the people and not the freedom of the bits, thus one may consider to be not *so* hostile against nonfree stuff when people want to use it (its their freedom to do so and its only arguable how much support one may give them, like it or not)
<cehteh>i understand that guix is a gnu project and will never include non-free stuff, but some semi-recognized external non-free repository should be acceptable (i mean talking about and not shunned)
<cehteh>but if someone tries to lift of some 'non-free' repo he usually gets a lot critism and blame, instead 'just do, we dont care'
<cehteh>not from the core devs but from some community people
<adfeno>cehteh: Well... That repo could exist, but people would probably not get support from #guix or Guix project directly, not because there wouldn't be people to do so, but because we cannot foster it.
<cehteh>ACTION remembers the duscussion around 'mame'
<adfeno>We agree that MAME is free/libre software, but one thing that we must be careful is: avoid fostering usage of MAME for using non-free software.
<adfeno>The only reasons for which the free/libre software movement agrees on keeping emulators, simulators, virtualizers, is both: (a) because their source files are free/libre (and the build can be done through free/libre software by default), (b) and because it's assumed that these are useful for *developing* free/libre software for the emulated/simulated/virtualized thing, or that the simulated/emulated/virtualized thing can be used to
<adfeno>understand how the non-free parts work and allow the interested person to develop replacements.
<cehteh>well i hate when the free software movement becomes a cult which is hostile against any other believers, freedom is/should be for the people and tolerance is a very important part of that.
<davexunit>I don't think there is any intolerance here.
<cehteh>note that i am (almost) only using free software since 20+ years
<cehteh>somewhere there is, but i am out biking now bbl
<davexunit>cehteh: re: the MAME thing, the person that asserted that MAME was non-free was not a core developer, and all core developers agreed that MAME was free.
<davexunit>we can't control other people that go overboard, but as far as devs close to the project I think they are all very level-headed about this.
<cehteh>he didnt assert it was non free iirc, he only asserted it promotes use of non free software (because it can emulate those games)
<rain1>>avoid fostering usage of MAME for using non-free software.
<rain1>The freedom to run the program as you wish, for any purpose (freedom 0).
<rain1>libre linux distributions can pick and choose the software they want to include, but freedom 0 is very clear
<adfeno>rain1: Yes, but once lots of people in the support resources of the distro start saying to other pople to "use MAME to do this", then perhaps we have ap roblem.
<adfeno>rain1: Or if they start telling people to "use MAME to run your favorite non-free games".
<janneke>adfeno: please do not advice or hint about running non-free software here
<adfeno>janneke: Indeed, don't worry.... I was just making examples of what some people started doing on some other free/libre software related support resources (mailing lists, IRC, forums and such). I'm not the one fostering such things.
<lfam__>"gnu: groff: Remove dependency on netpbm." Thank you!!!
<Salt>ZombieChicken, thanks for the tip, will do that as able, need to get an alternate source management system in place before a trip in two weeks
<ZombieChicken>rekado: Linux Libre is unusable if you are on a modern nVidia chipset and need the 3D acceleration, just FYI. That's why my desktop is running Gentoo
<Salt>it is pretty odd that compiling a package requires network access
<ZombieChicken>Not at all; you have to download the source to build it, or download the prebuilt package. It's a little weird that you can't fetch that seperatly imo, though
<ZombieChicken>rekado: just FYI, the noveau nVidia driver doesn't work with the DDR3-memory boards; it can't change the clock setting, so you're running it at a very slow speed. Just so you know one reason why Linux Libre isn't usable in that specific case
<davexunit>yes but there is plenty of hardware that does work with linux-libre
<davexunit>nvidia is well established as a terrible company to get hardware from.
<ZombieChicken>davexunit: Yeah. but it's still an issue and a reason why the Libre kernel won't work in some cases. If there is a reason someone /has/ to use that hardware (I'd imagine some laptops would likely fall into this category, or hardware someone can't upgrade for whatever reason), the Libre kernel is entirely unusable.
<ZombieChicken>which reminds me, I need to find out if Radeon chips have the same problem
<davexunit>and that's unfortunate, but linux-libre isn't the problem
<ZombieChicken>Actually, the bug where it can't load firmware is the problem
<quigonjinn>ZombieChicken: did you run 'guix pull' before 'guix system init ...'?
<rekado>I’m using full disk encryption with Libreboot.
<ZombieChicken>quigonjinn: Yes. I may have missed a (dependency ...) in the (file-system ...) list.
<quigonjinn>ZombieChicken: yes, probably. There was an issue in 0.13, but it should be fixed if you run 'guix pull'
<ZombieChicken>Yeah. Given GRUB was able to boot the system, I think that's a pretty good indication that things are fine and there is just a small problem. I just hope I won't need to reinstall the system and take another 10+ hours of compiling
<quigonjinn>ZombieChicken: BTW, it is possible to reclock some Nvidia GPUs with linux-libre, namely most of the Kepler series.
<adfeno>I take that I agree with both ZombieChicken and davexunit on the Linux-libre issue. I disagree to arguments about it "being usable only on old hardware". But I think part of the problems are related to that firmware loading bug, and also due to the fact that the hardware itself is to blame.
<adfeno>ZombieChicken: Having seen a friend of mine test what quigonjinn said, and seeing the Feature and Compatibility matrixes of Nouveau, I agree with quigonjinn.
<ZombieChicken>It's entirely possible they got things to work with newer GPUs since I last checked with them
<quigonjinn>I am actually having my GPU reclocked on GuixSD atm
<ZombieChicken>I didn't keep up because I figure the better option would likely be Radeon
<jonsger>ZombieChicken: radeon has FOSS driver, but propetary firmware which isn't include in linux-libre
<davexunit>I returned a new radeon card for this reason
<davexunit>everything I had was like "yeah it's all free now!" so I ordered one
<lfam__>fr33domlover: It's possible that you will not be able to pull directly from 0.11 to 0.13. You may need to do it in two stages. If so please paste the error messages on paste.lisp.org and we will try to help.
<rekado>lfam__: you’d have to get past the initial confusion of using Blender. And I remember that exporting video sequences was a bit more work than I liked.
<lfam__>rekado: But I should look into the blender "sequence editor"? I didn't even know where to start, but if I have some words to look up, I should be able to get there :)
<rekado>lfam__: (disclaimer: I’ve last done this 4 or 5 years ago)
<fr33domlover>lfam_, how about some automatic script to check for updates? etc. much like APT has one in debian?
<lfam_>I get concerned about people that don't update because we fix large numbers of remotely exploitable bugs in the packages
<fr33domlover>a cron job etc. or some reminder telling you if there are upgrades
<lfam_>Recent versions of Guix will warn you if you are using an older version
<lfam_>`guix pull` is relatively computationally expensive, so I don't think we'll make it update itself automatically be default, but maybe we could create a service for GuixSD that users could enable
<fr33domlover>lfam_, I'm far from that but I'd do it like this: (1) expand the partition config to allow for more partitions and encryption and LVM volumes etc. (2) check maybe how debian reads that data and actually makes the partitions and updates the cryptttab etc. and do it similarly in GuixSD ^_^
<rain1>I don't know if this is possible, someone vwould need to sanity check this
<rain1>but splitting guix repo into 2 things, the guix demon and tool and then separately all the packages
<Leo`>Is it possible to reconfigure on the live installation system? I'd like to start a few services to check that some things work before installing.
<rain1>and the benefit (potentially) would be to build guix much much faster
<lfam_>rain1: It's been suggested but many of the Guix developers would prefer to develop them together without having to maintain an API between them