<Apteryx>sneek: later tell civodul: never mind, everything seems to work as expected even in guix environments upon further testing. If you find anything strange let me know! I'll be AFK for the next week or so due to traveling.
<sneek>civodul, Apteryx says: never mind, everything seems to work as expected even in guix environments upon further testing. If you find anything strange let me know! I'll be AFK for the next week or so due to traveling.
<sneek>civodul, Apteryx says: (in regards to man-db database hook)
<paroneayea>thomasd: you may have heard me talk about this in my talk... you can have a REPL type thing where the listener can take commands (maybe in lisp, maybe in some other dsl on top of lisp), and imagine a command line where it can show *more* than just text... imagine if ls could output preview icons of all the files in there
<paroneayea>thomasd: or maybe you're building up a procedural image; every time you modify the image object or compose a new derivation
<paroneayea>that's because the object is able to give a description through some generic method specifications of how it should render
<paroneayea>also, the objects in this "shell" are also interfacable with a mouse and do mouse-sensitive things
<paroneayea>so wait a minute, if that's all that powerful, why not build your entire UI out of lisp objects that are able to render and be interfaced with and be clicked on, not just have a rich shell?
<paroneayea>and of course the emacs you embedded could also be extended
<paroneayea>and that's exactly how Symbolics' Concordia document preparation system worked; a full fledged word processor inside an "emacs" (here, "zmacs")
<paroneayea>if you want to see a good example of a lisp listener in action, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4-YnLpLgtk is decent; I'm sure there are better examples that could be given but it's hard to find material of people showing these things off. Still, shows a REPL which is showing and modifying images, etc
<paroneayea>anyway, if we made GOOPS good enough, and added a CLIM type layer, there's no reason we couldn't have something like this in Guile, but yeah for now Common Lisp is the place to go explore these I guess
<paroneayea>thomasd: rekado had remarked upon seeing McCLIM that this is how they wished emacs worked (I agree)
<paroneayea>don't get me wrong, I love GNU Emacs (which someone pointed out yesterday that hacking emacs is kind of like editing Logo for text, where the turtle is your cursor)
<paroneayea>but it would be pretty cool if someone used EIEIO to implement the CLIM spec or something
<thomasd>paroneayea: I was away for a minute there ;) thanks for the overview. so many directions to explore...
<paroneayea>thomasd: indeed, too many! happy spelunking, but don't get lost down there...
<rekado>paroneayea: whenever someone talks about implementing something new in Emacs I wonder if maybe it should be implemented in Guile instead (and then an Emacs interface could be added for it).
<rekado>I’m at this point with the browser stuff in Emacs.
<rekado>maybe it would be better to implement this with Guile, because Elisp isn’t the best language when it comes to domains other than Emacs buffers.
<catonano>McCLIM looks interesting. I wonder ow hard it would be to have it run on some LISP implementation
<ZombieCh1cken>Hopefully silly question; does Guix replace the current contents of /boot with it's own stuff, or will it leave hand installed kernels and such in there?
<ng0>Yesterday I learned about the grand end goal of a project of people located around where I live. They are working on making a secure, distributed, version control system :3 Sadly their website is so terrible that I can't point to it at the moment, and despite being very active I still have to poke them until they give me the source urls
<snape>ng0: isn't git a secure, distributed version control system?
<ng0>okay, distributed as in decentrailzed and makes use of a distributed network
<ng0>so that you can work wherever the hell you are without depending on a particular server or anyone running .onions etc
<CcxWrk>ng0: Personally I'm quite interested in Pijul when it manages to become more mature.
<ZombieCh1cken>ng0: Is it an entirely new VCS, or is it building ontop of something already in use, like git?
<ng0>I asked surim to keep me in the loop so that I can direct people at them (autotools champion needed to replace what they have now), and to be informed about more details and when we can start the system integration
<CcxWrk>I think tahoe-lafs guys were making a git backend plugin.
<ng0>ZombieCh1cken: my guess is entirely new. I'm only picking up information through delayed message exchange :)
<ng0>started in Ruhruniversität Bochum, but as its funded by no one now, they are just hacking on it whenever they can. currently surim works 4 hours a day in addition to the day job, which sounds like making lots of progress since last time I learned about it
***ryanpcmcquen_ is now known as ryanpcmcquen
<thomasd>ZombieCh1cken: about boot: I think it depends on what you mean. I have some separate partitions where a Ubuntu still lives, but if you choose your existing boot partition to serve as GuixSD's boot, I suppose GuixSD will overwrite the existing boot/grub etc?
<ng0>can we still say that GuixSD is based on NixOS or is it now more accurate to say that it has parallels to NixOS? There's Nix as the origin, and there are some C parts where a GSoC project which was offered is to replace it with Guile.
<davexunit>we definitely don't say that GuixSD is based on NixOS
<davexunit>because they are entirely different and we all really want people to stop saying that we are "just" a Scheme layer on top of Nix.
<rekado>there are two things that Guix(SD) and Nix(OS) have in common: the idea of functional package management and the daemon.
<ng0>I have to read it again, now that I look at it again I don't see the sentence I meant to show you
<ng0>I know by now what the common ideas are. what I meant was this in "Help > Papers" the text for the original Nix whitepaper adds this, which point to the acknoledgements in the Documentation: … "about the Nix package manager, which Guix is based on."
<thomasd>The Guix manual's acknowledgements section also start with “Guix is based on the Nix package manager”.
<rekado>I think “based on” is an unfortunate choice of words.
<thomasd>yes, it can be interpreted in different ways
<davexunit>yeah I think we have grown to regret that choice of words
<davexunit>it gives people the wrong idea and makes it seems as if we are a derivative
<ng0>ludovic said that over the years a comparison section was hoped to be avoided, but said it looks like it is necessary. Maybe a simple change of words there will work. To just explain what is meant by "based on"
<rekado>I still think there shouldn’t be a comparison section.
<rekado>I don’t think Guix should be defined in terms of Nix.
<rekado>“based on” could be replaced with a more accurate statement.
<thomasd>something along the lines of “Guix builds on ideas first implemented in ...”?
<paroneayea>catonano_: http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/index.html there's also a standard, which could be followed if porting to another lisp (Guile?) were desirable. I don't know if today you would make exactly all the same decisions... it seems to have some nice things (most classes / structures seem to be immutable) but some I'm not sure if nice things (one thread per window?)
<paroneayea>catonano_: occasionally I think about how nice it would be to have a WM that had widgets that were CLIM-like in design, but which followed the kind of design that davexunit's sly had, which seems like it would work well with a WM
<paroneayea>it would be great to have more CL packages in Guix.
<catonano_>maybe there' s a group of us interested in working on implementing that protocol (standard ) in Guile scheme ?
<catonano_>this is exactly what tomasd was discussing a short while ago
<catonano_>having more common lisp packages ported in guix
<paroneayea>catonano_: I'd love to see it if someone wanted to play with building it. But yes, I think having McCLIM in Guix would allow Guilers to more easily explore what ideas are good or not before starting such an attempt... not to mention how nice it would be to have more Common Lisp packages in Guix as its own reward :)
<paroneayea>catonano_: btw there's a #clim channel here on freenode if you like to hang out there. It's usually pretty quiet but sometimes some interesting history drops in there.