<karhunkynsi>hey guys, i'm running through the installation and noticed a minor weakness in the "System Installation". In section 6.1.3-1 it says to use "eno1" for network interface, however this isn't always correct.
<iyzsong>karhunkynsi: yes, there is a footnote for it, but I agree it could be better.
<DusXMT>shiranaihito: It shoudln't be impossible to port it over, but for the time being, no.
<shiranaihito>DusXMT: alrighty :) i wonder if the idea has come up before
<DusXMT>shiranaihito: Certainly; there was a person who was considering doing a "Debian GNU/kFreeBSD" port, and a bunch of people thinking about an OSX port, but for the time being, the only actively developed port I know of is for the Hurd
<DusXMT>OpenBSD-based GuixSD, of someone made such a thing, would basically be, as some people say, "a Linux distro", with Linux removed and OpenBSD's kernel put in place, kinda like what Debian's doing with their GNU/kFreeBSD.
<shiranaihito>DusXMT: what does it mean for "OpenBSD utilities" to be a part of what can be installed from Guix? .. i mean, Guix would be used to install stuff like third-party applications like servers and stuff, right? but to me, "OpenBSD utilities" sounds like "awk" and "sed" and the like
<rekado->it's not impossible to swap out input packages programmatically, but this project hasn't done anything like that, has no capacities dedicated to make it work (because that's not the goal as mark_weaver said), and it's unlikely to just work.
<DusXMT>shiranaihito: indeed, it is the "awk", "sed", "sh", and friends. There are various implementations of those utilities, each with different quirks and features, and if you change from GNU's implementations to BSD implementations in Guix, you'll find that many things will fail to build, since they might depend on specific behavior of the GNU flavors
<rekado->shiranaihito: a package in Guix is fully defined by all its inputs; this includes the tool chain used to build it, the compiler, the shell, etc.
<DusXMT>shiranaihito: not really. GNU/Linux - GNU System which uses Linux as its kernel; Linux - A monolythic, unix-like operating system kernel written by Linus Torvalds, and a huge-ass community that surrounds him
<shiranaihito>so the main problem would be getting all the OpenBSD packages to work with the GNU utils that Guix uses.. or something?
<mark_weaver>shiranaihito: there are many components of an operating system. most of the core components are from the GNU project. it's the GNU operating system with the Linux kernel added. but many people just call the entire system "Linux".
<DusXMT>shiranaihito: no. The problem would be getting the bootstrap binaries to build
<DusXMT>And to ensure that the Guix daeomn and client work properly on OpenBSD
<mark_weaver>that's not about ideology, it's about giving credit to the ones who actually made most of the core system.
<shiranaihito>so a "GNU system" is.. any kernel with the GNU utils around it, or a Linux kernel specifically?
<mark_weaver>any kernel with the GNU compiler, C library, utilities, etc, around it.
<rekado->the value of the GNU C library is often under-appreciated.
<rekado->shiranaihito: if Guix were ported to OpenBSD you could still package up BSD software for Guix, of course.
<rekado->but the porting part should not be underestimated.
<_`_>shiranaihito: if you just want stuff to work “and get stuff done” an adventurous project like GNU Guix on OpenBSD sounds like a deterrent for that goal.
<mark_weaver>shiranaihito: let me ask you this: why do you want to use OpenBSD? I'm not asking to try to convince you otherwise, but rather to gauge whether Guix on OpenBSD would still hold the benefits you desire.
<shiranaihito>_`_: well, there's no adventure if whatever i'm using Just Works.. that would be the goal here anyway
<DusXMT>shiranaihito: what _`_ meant to say is, this port would be a lot of work :)
<shiranaihito>mark_weaver: it seems to me that OpenBSD is very sensibly managed, and reliable.. potentially with minimum fuss and breakage etc
<mark_weaver>if you want stuff that "Just Works", then Guix on OpenBSD will certainly not accomplish that, and even existing Guix wouldn't. we are in an early stage, and lots of stuff doesn't work properly yet.
<shiranaihito>i'd like to use Guix too.. which is why we're having this conversation :p
<rekado->re "sensibly managed, reliable, minimum breakage" --- I found that the Guix System Distribution (GuixSD) matches these terms, in my experience.
<shiranaihito>yep, GuixSD may well be great :) i like OpenBSD's security-oriented approach too though
<DusXMT>shiranaihito: Guix is alpha software. If you want something which Just Works(tm), Guix won't fit your needs :) Stick to OpenBSD, you'll get the BSD utilities and nice features like 64bit time_t on 32bit systems, libressl, packet filter, and everything else out of the box
<_`_>Someone with experience with both (experience being key here) might have various degrees of success with GNU on top of OpenBSD. Whether the GNU C library and other userspace components work just fine on top of OpenBSD, compared to what OpenBSD ships with as an OS, is an experiment for a person wanting to try this.
<shiranaihito>but from what i've seen, i'm not happy with the typical Linux distros.. and not happy with at least one not-so-typical one: ArchLinux
<DusXMT>shiranaihito: Gentoo is really nice in my opinion, have you tried that yet?
<_`_>And that's not even taking into account GNU Guix as a package manager. Or possibly shipping what's part of OpenBSD's userspace with GNU Guix and getting that working instead
<shiranaihito>basically i'm trying to choose the most sensible and practical tools for running my future SaaS apps
<rekado->I used Arch before and eventually switched to Fedora after stuff broke with every update. (e.g. input methods). Now I'm with GuixSD and no longer worry about upgrades at all (because I can always roll back.)
<shiranaihito>ArchLinux is out because running "pacman <upgrade stuff>" totally borked the Arch installation.. that's just.. ridiculous
<rekado->shiranaihito: I don't think it is helpful to talk about Arch here, honestly. We know more about Guix ;)
<shiranaihito>but basically a big community isn't a sign of good software
<shiranaihito>well, now i was talking about things that are (or can be) involved in any project :P
<mark_weaver>shiranaihito: one thing you ought to know right now is that we're dedicated to the goals of the free software movement, and building a 100% free system complying with the GNU Free Software Distribution Guidelines.
<shiranaihito>i used to think Stallman was kind of um.. "overboard" with the stuff, but these days it's clear it's not possible to be too careful .. or at the very least it's great that some "truly free" stuff exists
<shiranaihito>maybe i'll play around with GuixSD a bit.. is it reasonably painless to get it running on a VPS?
<mark_weaver>there's still a lot left to do to make GuixSD good for running servers.
<mark_weaver>it's a good foundation, but we still have very few service definitions
<mark_weaver>so far we've been mostly using it for desktop systems, and it needs work there too :)
<mark_weaver>so if you want something that "just works" "today", you'll be disappointed, I'm afraid.
<mark_weaver>that said, if you're willing to do a lot of fiddling and troubleshooting at first, and live for now with some inadequaciees (or better yet, help us fix them), then it's quite reliable in the sense that you can prevent regressions using our roll-back features.
<mark_weaver>it's the first system I've run that is both cutting-edge (using very up-to-date software in most areas), and also reliable (no fear of being left with a broken system from a bad upgrade).
<mark_weaver>Nix also has those properties, but I prefer Guix for both technical and philosophical reasons.
<civodul>we should reduce review latency for newcomers, to not drive them away
<karhunkynsi>just thought i'd mention. After an apparently successful install i can't boot from usb and get to the prompt anymore. I get passed the bootloader, then i get this error for a few seconds: "error: file /gnu/store/..-system/initrd not found", then it crashes
<mark_weaver>civodul: along the same lines, if you could look at wingo's patches, that would be great. I tried but felt that my expertise in those areas is not sufficient..
<civodul>mark_weaver: yes, i'm planning to do that
<sneek>Welcome back davexunit, you have 2 messages.
<sneek>davexunit, paroneayea says: One crazy way maybe to have different objects communicate things between ticks and still keep things functional is a pseudo-functional pseudo-actor model where npcs / player objects and etc first process the current game state, then generate possible messages to be read by other actors during this tick based on that state... maybe?
<sneek>davexunit, paroneayea says: I guess that deviates more from the FRP direction than you want to go, though.
<DusXMT>ACTION should check the state of GNU/Linux on PS2, if that's still around, he might end up trying out Guix on MISP