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2015-01-31.log
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<jgrant>mark_weaver: Should I be seeing anything currently, even? <mark_weaver>jgrant: I'm not sure that fedora will work either, unless you installed packages from outside of fedora to support H.264 <jgrant>Even on my Fedora install, it still says "Error: No streams found". <mark_weaver>I strongly suspect that the stream will be in H.264 format. <jgrant>Well yeah, I don't like non-comforting "error" messages. :^) *jgrant installs every gstreamer codec he can for Fedora and crosses his fingers. <mark_weaver>but fedora doesn't support H.264 out of the box, because Red Hat would risk getting sued for patent infringement. <jgrant>Yeah, rpmfusion should have the codecs. <mark_weaver>distros that are not run by a for-profit company don't have to worry about it as much <mark_weaver>I intend to add H.264 support to our gstreamer somehow, which I hope would enable icecat HTML5 video to work on H.264 streams, but it won't be ready before Ludo's talk. <jgrant>I'll easily be up for the start. <jgrant>Is there any legal threat, since it's under GNU and not a company? <mark_weaver>but if we can find a URL that works with mplayer, then I'll be able to watch it (and also capture it, I think) with Guix's mplayer <jgrant>Vlc can certainly capture video from streams. <mark_weaver>jgrant: yeah, but our vlc doesn't support H.264. that should be fixed as well. <jgrant>If I can find a stream url-- I'll attempt to capture it on my Fedora. <mark_weaver>finding a stream URL suitable for mplayer/vlc will probably involving digging through the streaming company's javascript code and trying to figure out what it's doing, unfortunately. <jgrant>I mean, it wouldn't matter that much if it didn't take a month or three to upload them. <mark_weaver>it's really too bad that FOSDEM's stream requires running non-free javascript and probably using patented codecs. <jgrant>Would be nice for interested newcomers/3rd parties, me thinks. <jgrant>Is there any free-software streaming services, that would be suitable? I wouldn't think icecast would have issuses. <mark_weaver>it's possible that I'm wrong about some of these assumptions though. <mark_weaver>libre-friendly streaming can certainly be done, but it requires someone who cares to set it up. <jgrant>Is icecast preferable? I'm not aware of anything similar. *jgrant looks at the depencies of icecast. *jgrant is hoping icecast will get Daala support. <jgrant>It is very odd that they do things this way ... It'd almost be like Libreplanet doing similar. <mark_weaver>libreplanet would never do this. unlike fosdem, they actually care about not putting pressure on users to use non-free software. <jgrant>They also have a strong focus on free-software, no? I think FOSDEM grabs a lot of that "O"pen Source crowd, from what I've seen as a 3rd party. <mark_weaver>reading code with all whitespace removed and all variable names turned into single characters is not fun <mark_weaver>well, looking at the code, I think that it *might* add nice links to the actual streams when they begin. <mark_weaver>but I've pretty much confirmed that they won't support any patent-free codecs. <mark_weaver>anyway, the stream links simply don't exist yet, as far as I can tell. they'll be added when the streams start. <mark_weaver>dunno, it's possible that once the streams start, things will be better than I fear. it seems that the streaming software is free and supports Ogg streams. *jgrant needs to upgrade this old Free-Software capable Wireless-G Extrenal Adapter, to a RYF based Wireless-N soon... <jgrant>This is far too bulky, 3 inches or so. <jgrant>mark_weaver: Yeah, I'm hoping you are wrong -- but checking out this "Mist Server" site I'm not too hopeful. <jgrant>Well, like 2 minutes ... for the first stream. About an hour, until the distribution room's opening. <jgrant>Sleep_Walker: Yeah, no stream though. :^( <jgrant>The Lameere room is the only one I know that is streaming. *DusXMT should have seriously looked at the latest cross-base.scm before posting to the ML... <jgrant>I am completely shocked we don't have St yet. <jgrant>That should be such an easy package. *jgrant adds it to his ever growing todo package-list. <jgrant>Sleep_Walker: How was the NixOS talk? Missed all of it, due to streaming issuses. *jgrant is hoping it'll be fixed by GSD's. <Sleep_Walker>jgrant: covering basics, showing motivation for that, showing some basic configurations *jgrant might try to nap again, a bit, before the GSD talk. <jcca>Hi, Is there a way to inject distcc into guix? I mean DISTCCPATH/bin into guix PATH <rekado>hmm, I just cloned the git repo on a different machine, ran ./bootstrap, ./configure, make, sudo make install, started the daemon, but when I want to build a package I get this error: "guix build: error: open-file: No such file or directory: "/gnu/store/vbcm1...-guile-bootstrap-2.0.drv" <rekado>I already tried rebuilding after make clean, but to no avail. <rekado>any ideas on what I'm doing wrong? <jcca>rekado: maybe this is a bit extreme: delete /var/guix/* reconfigure and start daemon <jcca>rekado: I have installed guix yesterday and its work <jcca>rekado: Did you restart guix daemon? <rekado>I did. Maybe there's some other state left behind from an earlier installation. I'll try to find everything and reinstall it. <DusXMT>rekado: how about /usr/local/var/guix ? <rekado>DusXMT: yeah, that's probably it. <DusXMT>tip: pass --prefix= (nothing) to configure <mark_weaver>rekado: yes, it's crucial that the localstatedir is the same as the currently installed guix <mark_weaver>damn, live.fosdem.org seems to be completely dysfunctional. set my alarm for nothing :-/ <mark_weaver>iyzsong: I was deliberately trying not to push changes that would require a lot of rebuilding, for civodul's talk. oh well. <jgrant>Well, kinda depressed I wasted a night for them to upload a noneixstant stream... :^/ <mark_weaver>well, I guess I might as well push my next icecat change directly to master instead of having hydra build it on a branch this time. <mark_weaver>jgrant: yeah, I would have preferred to get some sleep than to wake up for nothing :-( <mark_weaver>on the plus side, they provide nice links to an mplayer/vlc-able URL on the web pages, if you are lucky enough to find one that's working at all. <jgrant>mark_weaver: It's been a mess; They had only about 2 rooms that had semi-regular streaming working. The room GSD/Guix is in, not at all. <jgrant>4 hours of "we're working on it". <mark_weaver>I didn't find any that worked though. just a few that worked well enough to show a still image, but there's no actual data coming through, or close enough to zero to make no difference. <jgrant>Lameere was last I checked, don't know the claimed others. <mark_weaver>on the negative side, it seems that I was correct that they provide no patent-free codecs. <jgrant>In any case, very annoying and they could have posted about the situation and been clear about "don't count on it". <jgrant>Yah for being correct, boo for what you were correct about. <jgrant>Depage (Ludo's room) is still null. *jgrant is still pretty annoyed. <jgrant>mark_weaver: I used the flv link and mplayer. <mark_weaver>jgrant: I think we have cause to be disappointed, but not annoyed. we didn't pay them for the streaming. I'm not even sure they announced its existence officially. <jgrant>mark_weaver: They said it wasn't a money issue; I asked if I could throw money in for next year. <jgrant>They gave a loose/nebulous excuse of they didn't run the network and it had something to do with how the UNI's network was set up, but didn't go into details at all. <jgrant>I think I'm more annoyed in that, I stayed up to attempt to catch 3 different talks -- and couldn't access any of them in a 5 hour span. <jgrant>I mean, I'm mostly disappointed -- but I'm also have a strong tinge of annoyance, due to sleep depriving myself out of the stipulation that I'll get some peck of a reward thereof. :^P <mark_weaver>you are chronically sleep-deprived, sometimes for no reason at all. so am I. <jgrant>mark_weaver: Well, it's not "no reason" but yeah. <jgrant>I've been working at a strong schedule though. <jgrant>It's mostly not being able to shut the ol' brain off, for good or bad. Usually it's just a lot of random blabber, sometime it's hyperfocused and clear thought. Kinda hard for me to discriminate to one side or another. *jgrant operates pretty well on 4 hours of sleep though, really. It's until you get to that 2 hour range for a few days in a row -- that's where things are apt to get promblematic. :^P *mark_weaver tries to get more sleep *jgrant probably should try a 2 hour power-nap or something at the end of the hour. <jgrant>Sleep_Walker: Going good so-far? <mark_weaver>it probably makes more sense for him to listen to the talk <jgrant>mark_weaver: Well, conciously listen, <mark_weaver>and an IRC channel is not like a real-live conversation, where it's good to fill silence with random chatter just because silence is awkward. <jgrant>I didn't ask because I thought the silience was awkward, I asked because I wanted to know what was happening because I can't see what's happening. :^P <jgrant>If anything, sorry if it's rude to interupt Sleep_Walker. <jgrant>mark_weaver: Story of my life. :^P <jgrant>Giving it another 10, then giving up. <iyzsong>ah, sorry if I cause trouble. glad to hear ;-) <mark_weaver>iyzsong: no worries, I think I'm just being silly anyway. your change looks good and useful :) <Sleep_Walker>but showing WindowMaker as the grand finale is not the best choice :b <mark_weaver>Sleep_Walker: agreed! he should have shown XFCE instead, thanks to iyzsong :) <iyzsong>yes, Xfce should be more friendly. guile-wm should be more cool :) <jgrant>Why does .guile-wm populate in a new GSD install for me? <jgrant>I'm saying, is there any inherent reason why it populates there to start? Like is this a concious decision? <jgrant>Like a vote of approval, upstream, by GSD -- or just something overlooked and/or not touched generally for no real reason? <iyzsong>ah, after look the git histroy, I don't think there is a specified reason, it's there since the begin (commit 40281c) <jgrant>Sleep_Walker: The actual source? <jgrant>It's both in master and also in emacs site-lisp, iirc. <alezost>Sleep_Walker: do you mean emacs interface for installing packages? *jgrant tries to find it in the cgit for guix. <jgrant>Sleep_Walker: A little nicity is that it ships with GSD. <alezost>it should work out of the box in GSD 0.8.1 <Sleep_Walker>I finally have WiFi which works with Linux-libre so I can play more <Sleep_Walker>but need to reconfigure system to contain wireless tools from beginning *jgrant needs to buy a smaller ryf wifi-card. <jgrant>Sleep_Walker: 0.8.1 ships iw and wpa_supplicant by default now, I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong). <jgrant>Sleep_Walker: Is it 3 inches and blocky? *jgrant had a feeling that was going to happen, as soon as he expunged that. <jgrant>This Wireless-G adapter is a huge pain and eyesore, put it works good enough that I can't rationalize spending 40$ on a new RYF Wireless-N external card. <Sleep_Walker>I'll try to reach civodul and steal some of hos time for progress of EFL :b *jgrant is blanking on what the EFL might mean. <Sleep_Walker>I'd prefer linux vanilla (feeling a bit less free with linux-libre) for now *jgrant needs to play with guix-mode more, pretty neat really. :^) <jgrant>Okay attempting nap for real in a few. bbl. o/ <Phlogistique>The talk got my hopes up about cross-compilation in Nix/Guix but is the ARM port actually cross-compiled? The news on the website seems to indicate otherwise <DusXMT>Phlogistique: Cross compilation is a feature of Guix. Indeed, you need to cross compile some packages (the bootstrap binaries) before you can even use Guix on a yet unsupported platform <DusXMT>Although it has its quirks: not all packages can be cross compiled, and you have no way of running tests <DusXMT>And no, except for the bootstrap binaries, the arm port is compiled on an arm machine <DusXMT>Tip: UNless it's absolutely neccessary, don't edit gcc.scm, it'll take a long time for you to be able to test your change out... <mark_weaver>Phlogistique: almost all of our packages are natively-compiled by default. however, we support cross-compilation, and use it when bootstrapping. <taylanub>is it fine to just take synopsis and description from Debian packages? <mark_weaver>taylanub: I often look at Debian's synopsis and description, and there's no legal problem with copying them wholesale in principle, but in general theirs would not always conform to our conventions and requirements. <mark_weaver>we have to comply with the FSDG for example, and we try to avoid stuff that sounds like marketing-speak, etc. <mark_weaver>and we have some conventions that guix lint checks for. *jxself imagines mark_weaver wandering off into the sunset <DusXMT>Does anyone know why a cross compiler (or cross linker used by a cross-compiler) is having trouble finding shared libraries? The dynamic linker is set up properly, I can see the correct value if I edit xgcc, and the path with the libraries is even added to the compiler's search path, so I don't know... <DusXMT>(I'm looking at the Hurd port, btw) <DusXMT>Manually specifying them on the command line makes it compile without problems <DusXMT>Specifying the glibc library folder with --rpath makes it work... hmm... <mark_weaver>DusXMT: you might try running the cross-gcc to link a simple test program with the -v option, so that it shows exactly what options are being passed to the subprograms (including the linker) <mark_weaver>and compare that with what happens with one of our cross compilers that works properly. *mark_weaver looks at the relevant part of the GCC source that would be used on Hurd to find its dynamic linker. <DusXMT>mark_weaver: It's gcc/config/arch/gnu.h <mark_weaver>search for "fix the dynamic linker's file name" in gnu/packages/gcc.scm <DusXMT>mark_weaver: I've got past that already <DusXMT>I'm trying, I'm just building a linux cross compiler <mark_weaver>DusXMT: also note that the C preprocessor macro being patched in the other cases (GLIBC_DYNAMIC_LINKER*) doesn't match the macro used in gcc/config/i386/gnu.h (GNU_USER_DYNAMIC_LINKER). did you fix that too? <DusXMT>mark_weaver: I've fixed that as well, the dynamic linker is found <mark_weaver>well, I'll wait for the -v output before making more guesses, I think. <mark_weaver>DusXMT: actually, I should mention that I believe you need ld-wrapper for the rpaths to be put in automatically. <zykotick9>trying a qemu install of GSD and running into an issue at step #2 (i believe) - the "deco start cow-store /mnt" resulting in "impossible" https://bpaste.net/show/b9741c19cdd9 /mnt is mounted, and a file can be touched in there. <mark_weaver>civodul is really the person to ask. I'm just muddling through in his stead. <DusXMT>Looking at native binaries, the libc and libgcc paths are in their runpaths... <DusXMT>Which is done by, presumably, ld-wrapper <DusXMT>If one was to remove these, what would happen? <DusXMT>that's a silly question probably, the libraries simply wouldn't be found... <DusXMT>I think I know what's happening now: on the Hurd, libc needs other libraries in order to function, ie. libmachuser and libhurduser. In order to find these, it needs to have the runpath set. This problem doesn't occur on GNU/Linux, as libc works on its own <DusXMT>This problem occurs when building libgomp, a library of gcc <jgrant>zykotick9: Can you list the commands you ran in-regards to creating that partition and mounting it to /mnt? <zykotick9>jgrant: "fdisk /dev/sdb" created one partition, then "mkfs.ext4 /dev/sdb1". there is currently a lost+found AND a /tmp/guix-inst directory on it. <zykotick9>jgrant: sorry, the mount was "mount /dev/sdb1 /mnt" <mark_weaver>I've never tried installing Guix in a VM, so I'm afraid I would not be of much help here, but I can tell you that it's trying to call: mount ("/gnu/store", "/.ro-store", "none", MS_BIND | MS_RDONLY, NULL); <mark_weaver>are you using a kernel we provided? maybe it lacks some features needed here? <DusXMT>mark_weaver: Well, this is the otuput I got when trying to compile the conftest.c file it choked on when runnign configure for libgomp (part of gcc, ld-wrapper isn't available yet): http://paste.lisp.org/display/145508 <mark_weaver>zykotick9: see what I wrote above. to debug this, we need to figure out why that system call is failing. <DusXMT>(Note: both libmachuser.so.1 and libhurduser.so.0.3 are in /gnu/store/pv4n9fhyjsv8ghl34n1fnvqirvp4lajs-glibc-hurd-cross-i686-pc-gnu-2.18/lib/) <zykotick9>mark_weaver: thanks. I saw your message, unfortunatly, I can't personally do much with it... i'm afraid :( i'm using the kerenl provided on the gsd-usb-install-0.8.1.i686-linux image. <mark_weaver>zykotick9: that usb installer uses grub. did you launch the VM in such a way that grub was run first? <mark_weaver>perhaps you launched qemu the wrong way, although I don't know what the right way is. <zykotick9>mark_weaver: insanity is trying the same thing and expecting different results, BUT i tried command again, 1st time "fuse: bad mount point '/.rw-store': No such file or directory" 2nd time it seems to have worked? or at least, no error output?!?! thanks all. <mark_weaver>DusXMT: I don't know where we add the rpath for glibc, but whereever that is, I guess we need to add more rpaths for those other libraries that glibc depends on. alternatively, it might be better for our glibc package to copy those other libraries into it. <mark_weaver>we should ask civodul what he thinks before committing to a particular strategy though. <DusXMT>mark_weaver: at that point, there's no rpath added yet, and they're in the same folder as libc.so <davexunit>did anyone happen to stream ludo's talk today? <jgrant>davexunit: Nope, the whole room didn't have streaming until after if at all. <davexunit>jgrant: not surprising. thanks for the update. <jgrant>I stopped waiting after 35 minutes into the 45 minute talk, after a whole night of general annoyance. :^P <jgrant>davexunit: We only have to wait 10 weeks, to 4.5 months now. :^) *jgrant wonders if it'd be easier to define a trivial-build-system for these font-league packages ... they have 0 build instructions. I need to be able to extract each one in the desired end directory, wun mkfontdir in said extracted direcory, and just genrally run fc-cache. <taylanub>this test suite uses ps(1). should I add a dependency or disable the test suite? <grasshopprWhoppr>A couple things desired in the installation: Colemak and wireless instructions. <jgrant>grasshopprWhoppr: Yeah, we need loadkey or something for colemak. I can write a basic tutorial for wpa_supplicant if you want. :^P <jgrant>It's like 3 commands to get wifi working. <jgrant>The alternative keyboard thing is relavitely understood as an issue, me thinks. I was tasked with adding a feature request to GNU's bug tracker on this issue, haven't yet -- though it's on my list. *grasshopprWhoppr is reading the arch wiki, but one of us could submit steps for manual. <jgrant>grasshopprWhoppr: Where you you want this guide to be, for Wireless? On the Libreplanet, or actually shippy on the install image? <jgrant>grasshopprWhoppr: I'm hoping that we eventually get some sort of wrapper/ui for guile eventually in regards to networking. <jgrant>But likely such a thing would depend on wpa_supplicant and etc regardless. :^P <jgrant>grasshopprWhoppr: You mean it be in like TTY2, like in Arch's install or on ArchWiki? *grasshopprWhoppr guesses that's a 3rd item on wish list. <jgrant>grasshopprWhoppr: No, we have wpa_supplicant. <jgrant>It probably wouldn't be a bad idea to dedicate tty2 to a relatively indepth install guide with general methods to set up nicities like network configuration, keyboard, etc. Then move the stardard manual to tty3. The "Begineer Guide" for Archlinux seems pretty popular and helpful in-route to stepping people through a foreign environment with relative ease. <jgrant>grasshopprWhoppr: I have no decsions on this matter, for I have no real power of influence though -- might be something you should ask civodul about at somepoint here, or on the ML. <jgrant>Personally, I'm all for making the installation instructions more expansive -- maybe just not in the cannonical docuentation. <grasshopprWhoppr>jgrant, I'll do that. The arch/parabola instructions start with one page that, incidentally, say how to loadkeys and connect, and then, you continue through the web. <jgrant>grasshopprWhoppr: You're refrering to the begineer guide, no? <alexshendi>Hi, I just installed the Guix System Distribution. How do I define a service so that wireless networking is enabled on startup? TIA. <grasshopprWhoppr>The beginner guide includes the installation manual, but the installation manual stands on its own. The link takes you to the stand-alone installation manual, jgrant <jgrant>grasshopprWhoppr: Well, that's doable via texinfo. <jgrant>I personally (again, no notable influence on the direction of the project) think it's a good idea. <mark_weaver>grasshopprWhoppr: we don't have anything nice yet to set up wireless. for now, I just write a very simple wpa_supplicant.conf and run it manually. <jgrant>mark_weaver: Sometimes it'll automatically start up when I restart my system ... not sure how or why. <mark_weaver>in common cases, wpa_supplicant.conf contains entries like: network={ \\n ssid="my-network-name" \\n key_mgmt=WPA-PSK \\n psk="my-network-password" \\n } <mark_weaver>and then run: wpa_supplicant -i <device> -c wpa_supplicant.conf -B <mark_weaver>obviously, this is suboptimal, but Guix is a work-in-progress, and there's still lots to do. <jgrant>mark_weaver: Even that is not horrid, really. <DusXMT>Will the talk be online eventually/is it recorded? <paroneayea>jgrant: there wasn't much time. The main question asked was what the difference was from nix <jgrant>DusXMT: Yeah, but Fosdem takes a notiorus amount of timi. <jgrant>Like 10 weeks to 4.5 months, from what I've noticed last year and the year before, before the bulk is up. <mark_weaver>for open wireless networks (no WPA or WEP), the entries are like: network={ \\n ssid="my-network-name" \\n key_mgmt=NONE \\n } <DusXMT>well, I'm done for today, good night people, keep on hacking :) <jgrant>The next release will probably be out, before the the Fosdem talk is public. :^P <mark_weaver>taylanub: I think we should try to keep the test suites whenever practical. adding ps seems reasonable *jgrant is currently setting up his vps to run GSD. Or at least having a go. :^) <mark_weaver>jgrant: running fc-cache within the package build is no good, because it will not have access to the user's home dir or any other fonts the user has installed. fc-cache needs to be run in an environment where all the user's fonts are available. <mark_weaver>if it were to be handled automatically, it would have to be done as part of profile generation, similarly to how we build the 'dir' file for info manuals. *jgrant wonders if there are currently any fonts packaed that has no build options, to which he can cheat off of. <jgrant>mark_weaver: I mean just general package recipies, but yeah. <jgrant>mark_weaver: Yeah, but from what I've seen they all have some sort of build-system tied to them? These "League of Movable Type" fonts are just font-files. <mark_weaver>every package have a build system. the fonts generally use the 'trivial-build-system' <mark_weaver>although the font you added apparently used the 'gnu-build-system'. that might be the only font we have that does. *jgrant isn't being clear on his end, I'm saying I haven't seen one that uses a trivial-build-system (which I didn't, but probably should count as a build-system). <jgrant>I've just checked Terminus, Dejavu, and Freefonts though. <mark_weaver>jgrant: every font package in fonts.scm except for font-terminus uses the 'trivial-build-system'. <jgrant>Hm, I might just be losing it then... <jgrant>Well, mosh is complaining when I try to connect (having problems staying connected with pure openshh) of "/gnu/store/xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx-mosh-1.2.4/bin/.mosd-real: Did not find mosh server startup message." *mark_weaver has never tried mosh <mark_weaver>my guess is that whoever packaged mosh only tested it as a client <jgrant>My bootstrap install didn't actually restart my systemd service for ssh. <mark_weaver>jgrant: I'm not sure what you're talking about, but guix doesn't use or support systemd at all. <jgrant>mark_weaver: I'm bootstraping GSD on my Linode vps, via Archlinux. <mark_weaver>we have only one ssh-compatible service at present, and that is 'lsh-service' <jgrant>mark_weaver: I must not be clear, on the partion that has Archlionx on -- I am installing Guix to boostrap install GSD. On the Archlinux install that I'm using to bootstrap, the sshd daemon needed to be restarted for the system to realize that mosh was installed. <jgrant>So it wasn't an issue with Guix on my local box, but Archlinux that I'm using to install Guix on my VPS.