<tadni`>Really, the only names I'm not a fan of on the current list are: germ, gig, and GuixOS. Germ has a kinda negative connotation for most people, not even a joking one. The meaning of gig (guix is guix) is not really reflective to the distro at hand, and GuixOS has the problem of calling itself an OS ... which I can't see RMS being okay with.
<tadni`>taylanub: I mean, it's an unfournate side effect that it has that "OS" component to the name. Especially since, RMS want to be clear that in no way would such a GNU Project make reference it is a complete OS. :^P
<toothbrush0>for GGG, wouldn't the "direct equivalent" then be Guix GNU/Linux? or am i missing something
<tadni`>taylanub: You sure about sansing GuixOS? I don't want to remove it, unless there is express permission from the one who suggested it. Even then, I'm not sure about deleting it. Just mention such a potiental problem, if it happens to get a ton of votes or something. :^P
<taylanub>tadni`: well, do as you wish. I mentioned it, but only because I thought it was a natural fit, not because I like it. and GuixDistro really is quite different from NixOS after all.
<toothbrush0>taylanub: i ask this as a huge noob, but why is that? because it's gnu devs + linux-libre? or other more important details?
<tadni`>I'm hoping we have a formal statement about all of this, by the weekend. Because if not, I'm personally going to be gone for most of the work week -- next weeek.
<tadni`>From RMS, what metrics we are allowed to work in/with, etc, etc.
<tadni`>I'm just kinda hoping we can side with GNUDist, it's really the most practical, logical option, from what I see -- and I came up, or helped with the titles of nearly half of the current suggested distro names. So, it's not like I have a huge nested intrest in it, inherently or anything. :^P
<tadni`>zdavis: Were you the one working on build support for *.iso?
<nkar>anyone familiar with ocaml ecosystem? (ocamldep in particular.)
<tadni`>davexunit: I mean, I just see a way to circvumvent the name "GNU Distro" officially. We wouldn't really use it ... in any place, but the actual install image, ideally.
<tadni`>Every other solution, is marketing for the sake of marketing -- and I think it'll be problematic if we ever try to transition to the "GNU Operating System" or even a "canonical implementation".
<tadni`>Like I said though, I either came up with or was a major influence on half of the current suggested names on the wikipage ... so I have no huge bias towards GNUDist sans I think it's the most logical solution.
<tadni`>Yeah, it's a silly name; But it also accurately expresses what it actually is. :^P
<tadni`>davexunit: Anything on the list, that holds your preference?
*tadni` was considering asking in #gnu, #emacs, etc.
<tadni`>Really though, I think people are making a bigger deal than needed over a portman -- that may imply something lude. Ideally, again, we'd eventually drop the title of GNUDist, to just be "GNU OS" a few years down the line. I think it's easier to drop this minor marketing than trying to go from something like Quixotic, to just 'GNU'.
<tadni`>mark_weaver: Yeah, that is a side-effect and in part a joke, but the fact that people seem to imply (they haven't said directly, but I suspect this is why) that it is in poor taste -- I'm not real sure why, when the logo represents nothing of the sort.
<tadni`>It's just GNU Distro -> GNU Dist -> GNUDist -> Which happens to have that sde effect. :^P
<tadni`>Which from what I can tell from most I've asked, were either neutral or thought it was midly humourous/entertaing.
<tadni`>Again, I'm fine with another name -- I'm just worried that if we do ever transistion to be "The GNU System" it might be problematic to switch over to just calling ourselves "GNU". At least with "GNUDist" it's just dropping the Dist and appending an OS. :^P
<tadni`>My favorite of the listed, of just going by names -- is GNU Jitsu, for the meaning behind it. Being some factor of a flexible technique/art.
<tadni`>Why I kept pushing in here about GNUDist, is because no-one would tell me /why/ they don't like such a name. I stated I assume because it can be viewed as lude ... but 3 people told me they dislike it in here, at least, and 3 people would not speak up as to say why.
<mark_weaver>tell me a food you dislike, and then explain to me why you dislike it.
<tadni`>mark_weaver: I dislike cheries, because they are too sweet that it's overwhellming to me.
<mark_weaver>okay, sometimes it's easy to explain, but not always.
<tadni`>mark_weaver: Am I wrong to suspect that that it does not have to do with people afraid to speak up and say such a thing could be viewed as lude and some outside individuals may view the projects poorly because of it?
<mark_weaver>I mentioned the "nudist" thing only because it was the problem I knew how to explain.
<mark_weaver>it's not the only reason I don't like it, but I can't easily articulate the other reasons.
<tadni`>mark_weaver: That's fine. But I tried to push dave into a similar respone -- because I suspected his view was similar, but I couldn't get anything out of him in route. civodul, left too soon for me to really pick his brain on the subject.
<tadni`>My point is, if a title is seen by many people in this community to reflect poorly on GNU and Guix, I want to know -- If I'm maintaining a list of such names, I'll strike them if need be.
<mark_weaver>I don't think it's helpful for you to try to "push" on this.
<mark_weaver>I think it's fine to collect ideas and occasionally poke us about it.
<tadni`>But I need to know what people are thinking, and if all people are willing to articulate is one think it's "silly" then it's hard to get such a thing from people in a clear way. :^P
<tadni`>To be clear though, it is not my intention to be overly pushy/aggressive, if that is how I have came off as.
<mark_weaver>I don't know what other people are feeling, but I feel as though you've been too pushy about this lately.
<tadni`>I just want to make sure when it comes to actually presenting such a list, either to the greater community, RMS, or what have you, we don't have something blatantly offensive that I may not have understood the implecations of. And when people say they don't like x, but don't provide a reason (and to your credit, you confirmed my suspicon for at least you) it makes me worry.
<mark_weaver>IMO, choosing names is like creating art. if someone posts some suggested artwork, that's appreciated. if we decline to accept it, and they spend a lot of time trying to get us to articulate why we don't like it, then it starts to feel pushy. to me at least.
<tadni`>But yeah, I probably need to take a week long break off or something -- I think the stress of the approaching finals are probably compounding on me.
<tadni`>mark_weaver: Art is subjective, titles to more-or-less market your system are not.
<mark_weaver>I disagree. IMO, the question of whether a name is good is mostly subjective.
<tadni`>If you are making actual art, you are not trying to appeal to anyone group -- when you market something, giving a name that fits with your target demographic to a point where they are at the very least, not put off is really important. I don't think this comparission works all too well.
<mark_weaver>okay, you're free to disagree. anyway, going afk now.
<tadni`>My general point is though, I often have a hard time understanding what most people find offensive or in poor taste, so deligating to others if they have any direct problem with such a name that I'm all for -- I try to understand why. And when the suspect reason is not that they can't vocalize why they don't like it -- but it just feels they don't want to be mean or offensive to me, I have problems with. If you think it's offensive or
<tadni`>at least in poor taste; Tell me. I want to know people's true feelings or I wouldn't be on about it.
<tadni`>But yeah, I probably more "at fault" on this one than anyone -- and hopefully I can hibernate for a week or-so, after final, and we a lot more "relaxed" thereafter and all that. :^P
<taylanub>I think Gnudist is a funny rather than credible name, so I would only recommend it in case we use a de-emphasized "code name" for our GNU distribution. ideally no logo (sorry tadni` :P), no stylized name (usually written all-lowercase, in filenames etc.), barely any occurrence at all in user-facing documentation, etc.
<taylanub>I never thought we should use it seriously for anything beyond that...
*alezost is not going to use "gnudist" as he doesn't like this name very much
<taylanub>I should add: since I wish for us to only use a de-emphasized code-name for the distribution and otherwise see it as just "a distribution of the GNU system," I don't feel strongly at all about the choice of code-name. one should view it as a disposable name so to speak, like Squeeze, Wheezy, and Jessie in Debian, although we'll probably stick with it permanently
<taylanub>really my prime wish is to have a strong emphasis on GNU
<tadni>taylanub: Till we get confirmation from RMS what are designated limits are, any name is irrelevant really. The reason I came up with a stylize image/logo to start for GNUDist, is for the fact that the free-distro.html page requires it, to keep up with it's style system.
<tadni>Again, ideally while we would want to de-empathize this name as much as possible -- I don't see us being able to sell it such a way, were whatever the name of said distro ... will be "sold" as something seperate from 3rd party distros.
<tadni>Unless, we get the official title of "GNU" which I find very unlikely ... and then it becomes a non-issue, because there is a stroing assumption that the "official GNU Distribution" whether it just be a general reference/cannonical implemntation or the deemed "GNU Operating System" itself, there is the expectation this would have more weight than 3rd parties. These would still need to be empathized, but the default "download gnu" link
<tadni>could maybe go to said distribution and have a footer or something, to specify other 3rd party distros.
<tadni>Again, until we actually know what RMS will allot us -- it's all just general speculation.
<tadni>Anyways, I'll pop back in later. It's almost 4am here, and I have some errands to do later today.
<civodul>tadni`: yes, that's good, but there's no strict deadline
<civodul>actually i still don't have the definite "no" from rms, though it's probably implicit
*tadni` may ask around a bit more. He asked in #emacs last night and that's whom suggested "GNURO" as a possible alternative to GNUDist... which never occured to me prior and is a pretty decent idea/alternative. But yeah, assuming we aren't just granted "GNU" staus -- which I don't see likely on any front ... amassing as many semi-viable solutions is probably avantageous.
<tadni`>I can never keep in 3rd person, for long stretches of time. It's too weird.
<tadni`>About 2/3rds into longer posts, I'm already broken out. :^P
<tadni`>Hm, Guix keeps on trying to force me to compile Icecat from source -- when I try to reconfigure my *.scm as a regular user.
<tadni`>Maybe if it didn't take literal hours on this box, to do so. :^P
<davexunit>perhaps that version of icecat was GC'd on the build farm?
<tadni`>I haven't payed attention to the actual termemu that's running the reconfigure phase closesly, so I don't know if it just times out after x amount of time or not. Keeping a closer eye on it now, to see if I can spot the problem. I'm hoping the subsitute wasn't just randomly deleted by some party or process, upstream though davexunit . I don't know how that would come about.
<tadni`>Okay, yeah, I think this might be the case davexunit.
<tadni`>I would just let icecat build ... but I tried last night into this morning and it used up, using up all my memory and causing the build to fail.
<tadni`>Not a huge deal, likely after today -- I'll be off this box, until next Thursday. Maybe Friday.
<toothbrush0>civodul: ah, i see the message has changed from "unresponsive" -> "somewhat slow" :)
<tadni`>davexunit: Fyi, if you want -- you can still submit that patch for those macros, checking my schedule, I won't have a working guix environment on my main box till like the 11th or-so. Not worrying about getting Fedora 21 and Guix going or their, till after finals are over. :^P
*tadni` really hopes that his bios /just/ doesn't like USB-installers and would take a *.iso on actual laser disk. He really wants to run GNU Distro on his main box, and is nearly at that point where that is practical.
<tadni`>But, I have fear that these UEFI bios are just real wonky and will prevent me from being able to run it sufficently. I was unable to run Parabola on that box, without some disc being in it's disc drive at startup...
<zdavis>tadni: I'm still making progress on the iso generation. I am trying to base it on what nix does, now that I finally found where they do it
<tadni`>zdavis: I'm just glad to hear you are still working on it! :^)
<tadni`>This is something I really want to see by Guix 1.0. Shockingly, even outside my usecase ... a /lot/ of people seem to use isos.
<davexunit>zdavis: good to hear! keep hacking the good hack. :)
<zdavis>iso's are sorta the lingua franca of virtual machine programs like virtualbox and vmware
<toothbrush0>i made a mistake while installing inside a vm, but only discovered after all the downloading etc, which is slow. can i do something like `chroot /mnt ; guix reconfigure ..` to prevent having to redownload everything like with `guix system init .. /mnt` ?
<civodul>if you have not rebooted, it won't redownload what has already been downloaded