IRC channel logs

<foo_bar__>or should y echo 'hydra....' | guix archive ....

*foo_bar__ installs links meanwhile ....

<bavier`>that file is in the guix source tree... I'm not sure where/if it's available in the install image

<foo_bar__>ah, oki

<foo_bar__>gonna find it. thanks!

<foo_bar__>I guess it's normal that in the beginning, installing even small packages means building lots of stuff...

<foo_bar__>I think I compiled gcc twice already :)

<davexunit>hey #guix

<davexunit>does anyone run the standalone guix distro with an ext4 root partition?

<davexunit>I tried to use a separate ext2 boot partition, but it causes grub to fail because it can't read /gnu/store

<davexunit>I'm not sure what's going on. could it be boot flag related? I set the boot flag on the /boot partition, but not /

<zacts>did anyone have a chance to add me to the wiki for requesting programs to be included in guix?

<davexunit>zacts: you can sign up for yourself

<zacts>davexunit: I did

<zacts>I log in via my fsf user + password

<zacts>and it won't let me edit

<zacts>it says I must be of the 'Users' group

<zacts>I can try again I guess

<davexunit>hmmm.

<davexunit>I can look into it.

<davexunit>grrr, now I get 'operating system not found' when I try to boot

<zacts>can I test guix with a live usb or dvd before installing it to see how it supports my laptop?

<davexunit>yes

<davexunit>got it to boot but... kernel panic. :(

<davexunit>looks like dmd died

<davexunit>but I can't see any logs

<civodul>Hello Guix!

<jmd>Hi Ludo.

<jmd>Can you explain to me some of the details of the guix-0.7 procedure?

<jmd>b

<jmd>Such as: ("boot-guile/mips64el"

<jmd> ,(boot-guile "mips64el"

<jmd> (base32

<jmd> "0fzp93lvi0hn54acc0fpvhc7bvl0yc853k62l958cihk03q80ilr"))))))

<jmd>

<jmd>Where does this hash come from?

<civodul>jmd: if you look at gnu-system.am:463, you'll see that, normally, running "make" for the first time downloads pre-built Guile tarballs

<civodul>this is the guile bootstrap tarball that you built

<civodul>and the recipe above just does that: it dowloads those tarballs and puts them in the right place so that "make" doesn't try to re-download them

<jmd>There are five tarballs aren't there?

<civodul>see "Bootstrapping" in the manual

<civodul>yes

<jmd>So which hash is this?

<civodul>but there's only one that is treated this way: the guile tarball

<jmd>ok.

<str1ngs>hello when I run guix package -i bash . it seems to want to bootstrap the world. is this avoidable with pre built packages?

<Steap_>str1ngs: yes.

<Steap_>doesn't guix try to use substitutes ?

<str1ngs>substitutes are pre built binaries? if so I get errors in regards to that

<jmd>In the build environment ACLOCAL_PATH is not set.

<str1ngs>g: ACL for archive imports seems to be uninitialized, substitutes may be unavailable

<str1ngs>need to import a pub key or something?

<Steap_>guix archive --authorize < hydra.gnu.org.pub

<str1ngs>let me try that thanks

<str1ngs>that looks better thanks

<str1ngs>well I guess I should have read what archive meant

<str1ngs>Today, each individual’s control over their own computing is at the mercy of institutions, corporations, and groups with enough power and determination to subvert the computing infrastructure and exploit its weaknesses. While using hydra.gnu.org substitutes can be convenient, we encourage users to also build on their own, or even run their own build farm, such that hydra.gnu.org is less of an interesting

<str1ngs>target.

<str1ngs>seems kinda redundant to me?

<civodul>str1ngs: see http://www.gnu.org/software/guix/manual/guix.html#Substitutes on how to enable substitutes

<civodul>it's currently disabled by default, unless you do the --authorize thing Steap_ mentions

<str1ngs>civodul: got it sorted out thank. now that I undertand what archive and substitutes means it makes sense

<civodul>cool

<str1ngs>but my impression is this is not encouraged?

<civodul>perhaps we should enable it by default in the future, dunno

<civodul>well, it's tedious to use if you don't enable it

<Steap_>it's not really user-friendly

<civodul>yeah

<str1ngs>seems to me it fails over to building

<Steap_>then again, usually, if it is user-friendly, it's also unsecure :)

<str1ngs>dunno about that

<civodul>yeah the idea was to sort of "raise awareness", but maybe that's misplaced

<str1ngs>I mean there signed archives hard to get around that

<str1ngs>I would assume that the source tarballs sig checked aswell?

<civodul>substitutes are signed, yes

<str1ngs>or atleast sha1

<civodul>and sources are sig-checked by developers, and then integrity-checked by users

<str1ngs>ah ok that works

<civodul>(package recipes include cryptographic hashes of the source)

<str1ngs>sha1 I assume?

<str1ngs>well so far I'm liking this. the store is really cool

<str1ngs>transactions. and the like. dunno about scheme though :(

<str1ngs>but scheme might be something that grows on me

<str1ngs>... like mold haa

<civodul>sha256

<civodul>normally you won't need to know Scheme, but you may learn it without noticing ;-)

<str1ngs>thats what happened with C

<str1ngs>after like 10 years of messing with autoconf. I was like might aswell just learn C

<Steap_>I never went crazy enough to learn m4, though.

<jmd>Steap_: Learning to code a sendmail is the way to go!!

<str1ngs>in m4?

<jmd>no. in raw sendmail syntax.

<str1ngs>jmd that handle I've seen it before

<str1ngs>in #foss or something on that lines

<tadni>What would be the best method in getting wireless networking supported in GNU Distro by this next release? Still packaging Wicd, or?

<str1ngs>what does gnu distro use to manage network now?

<str1ngs>also what init does it use?

<tadni>str1ngs: init, being init-system?

<str1ngs>pid 0

<tadni>Dmd.

<str1ngs>also how does guix differ from nix?

<viric>isn't this a FAQ?

<viric>a FAQ answered somewhere :)

<tadni>str1ngs: Also, GNU Distro just uses dhclient and some other like tools for eth0 I believe.

<str1ngs>FAQ dont socialize

<str1ngs>are you anti social?

<viric>str1ngs: only with those that suspect of me being antisocial

<str1ngs>tadni: personally archlinux netctl is pretty simple for a wifi

<tadni>str1ngs: That depends on systemd, though?

<str1ngs>no as I recall

<viric>does #guix already have trolls? That's a sign of success

<tadni>If not, this might be an ideal place to go.

<str1ngs>viric: you need to learn the definition of a troll

<tadni>viric: Nah, just personalities colliding.

<viric>:)

<viric>str1ngs: definitions don't socialize

<tadni>The "ctl" bit of netctl, makes me worry that it's systemd dependent.

<str1ngs>it could be dependant on systemd but I doubt it

*tadni goes to ask in #archlinux

<str1ngs>tadni: it does use systemd but I dont think it required

<str1ngs>viric: first sign of a troll? unreasonable

<viric>I agree, unreasonable

<str1ngs>I see what you did that, but I was funny atleast :P

<str1ngs>there*

<tadni>#archlinux said it's dependent on systemd.

<str1ngs>hmm

<tadni>Then they just clarified " right – it's not a core part of the design, but it's still required for stock netctl to work."

<str1ngs>wicd is a good option I guess

<str1ngs>I would for now use wpa_supplicant by hand

<tadni>str1ngs: Even that, was problematic last time I saw.

<str1ngs>should not be

<tadni>Kernel modules not loading.

<str1ngs>since all wifi managers wrap that

<tadni>Did someone ever fix the alsa modules not loading?

<str1ngs>is there a /etc/modules-load.d ?

<tadni>sound/alsa*

<tadni>Do we have "wpa_cli" in the repo?

<tadni>Evidently wpa_supplicant ships with a ncurses frontend.

<str1ngs>yes think it helps generate a config

<str1ngs>iirc

<str1ngs>(define is a funcion derp

*tadni probably needs to set up his dedicated development box for this cycle again.

<tadni>I'm probably going to poop out a guide for simple install instruction/setup in a month or-so.

<str1ngs>there is a usb install document

<str1ngs>but the usb's looke outdated

<tadni>str1ngs: Yeah, I'm planing a fairly comprehensive introduction, that gets you all the way to an expected desktop experience aimed at a more-general, but still relatively technical user.

<str1ngs>I think installing from existing distro might be a better start

<str1ngs>guix depends are not that harsh

<str1ngs>libgcrypt guile libbz2 pkg-config

<tadni>str1ngs: It'd cover both use-cases, but Guix from an existing distro is not that hard to set up.

<str1ngs>probably better work is to releng USB's

<tadni>GNU Distro set up, is very foreign unless you've installed NixOS before.

<tadni>releng?

<str1ngs>release engineer

<str1ngs>if you have a good way to master a USB. you can add an updated README

<tadni>str1ngs: Well, it's still in Alpha right now? So I don't think it's a huge concern.

<str1ngs>off and the config file should be generated IMO

<tadni>off?

<str1ngs>off hand*

<tadni>str1ngs: Generated from what? It comes with a default one.

<str1ngs>is scheme serializable? can you machine write it ?

<tadni>str1ngs: I mean yeah, but I'm not sure from what you'd generate it from.

<tadni>At least right now.

<str1ngs>I'll have to re-read the guide but I thought it mentioned creating a config for new root etc

<tadni>Maybe once we get a gui-installer, it'd make sense for it to generate a config file.

<str1ngs>no gui installer

<str1ngs>dont need it

<tadni>Via the medium of a terminal installer, I don't see how/why it'd make sense to autogen a config.

<tadni>str1ngs: Yeah we do, if we want anyone non-technical to install GNU Distro.

<str1ngs>well config is required for guix to install the system. let me find the page in questoin

<str1ngs>nobody non-technical is going to use the distro for awhile

*tadni doesn't know if he's just tired or stupid, right now.

<tadni>Has no idea if we are talking about the same thing.

<str1ngs>I didnt get the impression you are stupid

<str1ngs>I could be wrong about the install process I need the find the page

<str1ngs>so assume I'm wrong for now

<tadni>str1ngs: To my understanding the eventual goal is to have to main variants of the distro. A minimal and full image. The minimal image would be analogous to what we have now. A terminal based install, where you just edit a config file that is provided (possibly eventually providing a whole bunch of sample config files) and the full image, would have a nice and simple, graphical installer, which would default to installing a full session

<tadni>with a bunch of handy tech. Such as shipping with GNOME and Libreoffice, etc.

<tadni>two main variants*

<str1ngs>tadni: see 6.1.4 of the system section

<str1ngs>guix manual

<tadni>str1ngs: Yeah, I'm not sure how you would automate this.

<tadni>If that's what you were getting at?

<str1ngs>yes

<tadni>I mean, it's changing about 10 fields total.

<str1ngs>how is the store handled with a system install. symlinks goto /usr/bin

<tadni>All of which, can't really be provided by the system.

<tadni>Maybe the disk configuration.

<str1ngs>no all that can be skipped

<str1ngs>all it needs really is the mount point

<str1ngs>the rest you can do byhand

<str1ngs>its nice sugar though

<tadni>str1ngs: The point is, that it's managed by your config file -- so the system can revert back to a time prior to that.

<tadni>So you can add users, and the system can roll back to version of the system without a user(s).

<str1ngs>well revert might not be the best work

<str1ngs>word*

<str1ngs>I like the sugar it provides

<tadni>Same with group privileges or system packages, or running init-services, etc, etc.

<str1ngs>ya I

<str1ngs>ya I'd leave it as is for now

<tadni>Yes, the inital install could be made easier ... but you lose flexibility. :^P

<str1ngs>personally I dont like the idea of guix formatting my partion

<str1ngs>but I tend to be explicited about those things

<str1ngs>the feature is not wasted though

<tadni>str1ngs: It's not?

<tadni>It's telling where to look on the disk.

<str1ngs>unless that just used to generate fstab?

<tadni>I don't see anything that formats the fpartition or anything like that.

<str1ngs>probably to generate a fstab

<str1ngs>so this is saner then I thought :P

<tadni>Yeah, I think it'd be a bit extreme if Guix was actually formatting and/or resizing things, etc.

<str1ngs>I'm kinda excited about this

<str1ngs>sadly I might have to stop writting my package manager haha

<tadni>str1ngs: Write a package manager that only installs package managers. A package-manager-package-manager.

<str1ngs>clever :P

<str1ngs>apt-get install guix?

<tadni>I think there's actually a package in AUR for Guix.

<str1ngs>I didnt bother with it

<str1ngs>./configure --prefix=/usr/local/guix

<str1ngs>not the type of package you actually need a package manager for

<tadni>str1ngs: That's probably all it does, anyways.

<str1ngs>naw it probably stuffs it in /usr/bin

<str1ngs>well /usr as --prefix

<str1ngs>a ppa though would be nice

<str1ngs>also a pacman repo

<str1ngs>this way you can avoid installing base-devel or build-essentials

<tadni>Is there a big enough Parabola or Trisquel effort to do such a thing?

<str1ngs>I would think parabola would switch to guix

<tadni>str1ngs: I'd be shocked.

<str1ngs>why?

<str1ngs>ABS doesnt even have a license

<str1ngs>go and ask what license it is under...

<tadni>Their whole distro is centered around just cloning Arch's repos, but having an ignore/blacklist on non-free packages.

<str1ngs>arch isnt actually free software per say

<str1ngs>yes but mean time they are using PKGBUILD's that dont have license

<str1ngs>if some author on the archlinux team dropped the hammer it could be an issue

<tadni>str1ngs: Still, I don't see them switching. I see and even to a degree, am hoping that they and other small all-foss (so all all-foss) distros just drop and combine to have one solid distro.

<tadni>Trisquel has one active dev, last I checked. Parabola I think has like 3.

<tadni>They're stretched very thin as-is.

<str1ngs>how many work on the guix system?

<tadni>They're doing great work and I appreciate it ; But it'd be nice if we could unify the efforts to have one solid distro.

<str1ngs>or is that covered by the guix developers?

<tadni>str1ngs: Right now, it's guix devs.

<str1ngs>arch has issues, it doesnt scale well

<str1ngs>PKGBUILD are ugly

<tadni>Once we move into stable, we'll likely form so actual development teams or similar.

<tadni>some actual*

<str1ngs>I need to read what the difference is from nix and guix

<str1ngs>so far I'm impressed, but scheme kinda has me down :(

<tadni>str1ngs: Scheme is actually /really/ nice for edsl.

<tadni>Lisps in-general seem to provide the best edsls you can get.

<tadni>So for the purpose of writing packages, scheme is great.

<str1ngs>that is true

<str1ngs>dsl is nice for this. but if you cant machine read or write it.. kinda doenst make sense for meta data

<tadni>That being said, GNU in-general is slowly shifting to Guile in many core/important technologis, which is great.

<str1ngs>putting meta data in code is frankly bad design

<tadni>A unified developer environment is very nice.

<tadni>str1ngs: Lisp has always been about the notion that data and code are fundamentally, pretty much the same thing.

<str1ngs>its great if you like scheme

<str1ngs>or atleast have a fronted that other might like :P

<str1ngs>that part is intresting atleast

<str1ngs>I shouldnt knock it I'll give it a chance atleast

<tadni>I mean, I don't have a strong background in or really that strong of a conceptual knowledge base when it comes to programming in-general and I was able to contribute around 10 packages now to it. I think that is at least a partial testament to it.

<str1ngs>I'm sure its good at that. but would be nice to have package data that is machine readable

<str1ngs>my package manager uses json

<tadni>Machine readable in what way?

<str1ngs>its serializable

<str1ngs>the hard part is the DSL though :P

<str1ngs>mean I can read json but write is a yml if I want

<str1ngs>or some templated html

<str1ngs>it can also write so say you have a version bump.. np

<str1ngs>also you can format json perfectly

<tadni>I'm not sure how Guix is not "serializable" in the common sense.

<str1ngs>you cant write to a scm with guix

<str1ngs>you have to edit it by hand

<str1ngs>or I guess emacs interface :(

<str1ngs>FML!

<tadni>I'm not sure what you would want to write to a file from guix, to scheme.

<tadni>I mean, you easily could.

<tadni>There's no reason why you couldn't install a package and that automatically be added to your config.scm

<tadni>But not every package I install via Guix, do I want added to my config.scm. I suppose their could be a toggle in the cli/emacs/etc-interface, to specify this.

<str1ngs>there are many reasons. like automatic depend injection for one

<str1ngs>eg. my package manage read elf dynamic so data and looks up the required package and injects it as a depend

*tadni is probably way too tired and way too inexperienced to have a serious discussion like this... :^I

<tadni>Yeah, it's nearing 5am. I really actually should head to bed in a sec.

<str1ngs>naw drink more coffee!

<str1ngs>EST?

<tadni>Central.

<tadni>In St.Louis, Mo, US.

<str1ngs>deco is not part of guix?

<tadni>str1ngs: No, it's part of DmD.

<str1ngs>why does dmd handle /gnu/store ?

<tadni>str1ngs: It does? I'm guessing so it can launch processes?

<str1ngs>deco start cow-store /mnt.

<str1ngs>This will make /gnu/store copy-on-write, such that packages added to it during the installation phase will be written to the target disk rather than kept in memory.

<str1ngs>hmm unless cow-store is a dmd service that just talks to guid-daemon

<str1ngs>guix*

<str1ngs>that would make more sense

<tadni>str1ngs: I'd assume that is the case.

<str1ngs>well I think I can get around it just sync sync

<str1ngs>before rebooting

<tadni>Okay, heading to bed for a few hours. o/

<str1ngs>laters

<tadni> Didn't end up sleeping.

<tadni>Chronic Insomnia, ftw! :^I

<civodul>tadni: "wireless networking" is supported, but one has to use iwconfig/wpa_supplicant by hand

<civodul>and one has to use a wifi device that has free driver + firmware

*civodul got an ath9k wifi device recently

<tadni>civodul: I thought there were issuses with dmd not loading kernel modules?

<civodul>so, that's fine now

<civodul>in 0.7 there were a bunch of issues like that

<civodul>firmware and driver loading work properly now, AFAICS

<tadni>civodul: Is alsa/sound loading too? When I tried to use alsamixer in GNU Distro on the last release, it was blank.

<civodul>tadni: yeah that's related, and it's fixed now: http://bugs.gnu.org/18525

<civodul>the original report: http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=18571

<tadni>civodul: Okay, very cool! Might try this or next weekend and see if I can get that all rolling. :^)

<civodul>yup

<civodul>tadni: you may well stumble upon other bugs, in which case please do report them!

<tadni>civodul: Yeah, will do. I plan to be a lot more active this release cycle.

<civodul>yay! :-)

<tadni>Sans the *.iso generation (which I may look into eventually myself) I think the only real big things I really want to add to get GNU Distro on my main box now is feh, clisp, stumpwm, and maybe audacity and ssr.

<tadni>feh's depends are mostly packaged.

<tadni>clisp and/or sbcl might warant a build-system for CL.

<alezost>tadni: feh was packaged 1.5 months ago

<nebuli>Hello Greeks (voice input)

<civodul>:-)

<civodul>hey, nebuli

<nebuli>greeks == guix ;-)

<nebuli>civodul: hey, got slim customized, but (mlet %store-monad ((s (slim ...))) (return (service (inherit ...) ...))) is so&so on the intuitive part, but it appears to work

<davexunit>I got my standalone guix system running this morning with working dhcp-client-service and slim-service

<civodul>cool!

<davexunit>window maker has some issues starting up programs that are installed in my user profile, though.

<civodul>i agree this could be made simpler

<davexunit>for example, I needed to install xterm system-wide.

<civodul>\\o/

<nebuli>davexunit: yeah, X only sees global system path

<civodul>might have to do with .bashrc does

<civodul>hm

*nebuli atm logs into X and starts apps from the tty console

<civodul>oh i see

<civodul>/etc/profile is not sourced in that case, hence the problem

<civodul>(my ~/.xsession explicitly sources it)

<davexunit>ah!

<civodul>bah

<civodul>could you mail it to bug-guix?

<civodul>i'm not sure exactly how to ensure X gets the right env vars

<davexunit>sure

<civodul>probably xinitrc, in xorg.scm

<davexunit>bug reported.

<davexunit>I was very happy when I booted with the slim-service enabled and saw the GNU login screen.

<davexunit>going to keep building up my OS config until it's comfortable to me.

<civodul>i had to fix a bunch of bugs before it was usable for me

<civodul>so i expect it'll be the same for other people's use cases

<davexunit>yeah

<civodul>it we get reports, we'll be able to fix them as well so it works better out-of-the-box

<davexunit>well a lot more people seem to be trying it out, so the reports will come in. :)

*Steap_ is doing Debian packaging

<davexunit>civodul: thanks for your thoughts on containers. I have a lot to read and think about.

<davexunit>does anyone know how hydra discovers new commits to the repo?

<davexunit>does it pull every so often or is there a hook somewhere?

<mark_weaver>davexunit: it pulls every so often.

<mark_weaver>it's in the jobset configuration

<davexunit>mark_weaver: thanks

<mark_weaver>np!

<jmd>This message: substitute-binary: guix substitute-binary: warning: while fetching http://hydra.gnu.org/nix-cache-info: server is unresponsive

<jmd>substitute-binary: guix substitute-binary: warning: try `--no-substitutes' if the problem persists

<jmd>

<jmd>is unclear.

<davexunit>means hydra is slow

<jmd>What does "persist" mean in this context?

<jxself>persist: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/persist

<jmd>jxself: Unfortunately wikitionary doesn't have a disambiguation category: guix error messages.

<jmd>Should it mean, that the operation will proceed once hydra becomes available again.

<jxself>Persists is an English word. :)

<jxself>"to continue to exist especially past a usual, expected, or normal time"

<jxself>Imagine that message saying "If the problem keeps happening" :)

<jmd>Or should it mean, that this operation will block for ever. I should interrupt it and hope that it works next time.

<jmd>jxself: English is my native language. Note that when I asked "what does persist mean" I added the qualification "in this context".

<jxself>It means if the problem keeps happening. If it keeps going on. If you keep experiencing the problem with hydra being unresponsive. If it doesn't start becoming responsive. etc. :)

<jmd>I guess the point of my question, was that when I see it, should I hit ^C and try again, or should I wait?

<jxself>Waiting might be good. I imagine trying again right after might not have as much of a probability of success as waiting but who knows? It's hydra. That says a lot right there. :)

<jmd>Right. So in other words, that message appears before the handshake times out?

<jxself>I'm not sure when it appears, if that's what you're wondering. I was talking of "killing it in between attempts" and then waiting.

<jxself>As opposed to "killing it in between attempts" and trying immediately afterward.

<davexunit>jmd: typically you can just ignore the message and your downloads will still work

<davexunit>it's just a slowness alert

<jmd>davexunit: Ok. Thanks.

<jmd>I wonder if the text of the message should be updated to make that clearer.

IRC channel logs

2014-11-20.log