IRC channel logs

<phant0mas>The goal is to port GNU Guix to GNU Hurd in order to create a GNU system with Hurd as its Kernel and Guix as its package manager, realizing the dream of a complete GNU system!

<phant0mas>how about this?

<phant0mas>my head is really stuck...:P

<Steap_>yeah

<Steap_>a formal description of both the Hurd and Guix before that could be nice

<phant0mas>okay can do that

<phant0mas>give me a sec

<Steap_>too bad we don't have civodul or mark

<phant0mas>exactly...

<davexunit>RIP

<phant0mas>I haven't seen them for the whole day

<Steap_>yes, civodul does not work on Wednesdays

<Steap_>phant0mas: was anyone OK to be your mentor ?

<phant0mas>I haven't heard from mark or ludo today at all

<phant0mas>and nobody else answered

<phant0mas>so no...

<phant0mas>crap :-(

<Steap_>but you did talk to Ludo abvout the Hurd before, right ? :p

<phant0mas>yes

<phant0mas>everyday

<phant0mas>:-)

<phant0mas>and mark

<Steap_>he'likely yo be ok then :)

<phant0mas>and they told me I can have as much support as I want fro mthem

<Steap_>I think Ludo might come to the channel later

<Steap_>ok

<Steap_>well if they do not show up, we'll just put their names

<Steap_>worst case scenario, you just don't apply :D

<phant0mas>:P

<phant0mas>:-(

<phant0mas>:P

<phant0mas> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=5VKNDGuS

<Steap_>what's the deadline, UTC time ?

<phant0mas>not sure, but jugding from the mailing list time is running out

<Steap_>is there a #gnugsoc channel or something ?

<phant0mas>no from what I know, only the mailing list

<phant0mas>and then there is #gsoc

<phant0mas>but officially the applications are over

<Steap_>\\o/

<mark_weaver>hi Steap_!

<ph4n70m4s>mark is back!!

<ph4n70m4s>I was starting to worry

<Steap_>yeah

<Steap_>We're looking for a mentor on ph4n70m4s' GSoC project

<ph4n70m4s>porting guix to hurd and creating a badass true GNU system

<ph4n70m4s>I am proposing this because I am an eligible student, I am working already on it, so it could be great

<mark_weaver>sounds good to me, but I'll need to look into what it means to be a mentor. unfortunately, the next few hours are very busy for me. I wish this wasn't all so last minute.

<Steap_>mark_weaver: yeah, I think nobody took care of the GSoC on the GNU side

<Steap_>IIUC, Google just said "well, if we don't have proposals in the 12 hours, GNU's out"

<ph4n70m4s>and we all run around like crazy

<Steap_>mark_weaver: I was thinking of putting civodul's name as a possible mentor

<Steap_>Looks like he worked on the Hurd issues with ph4n70m4s

<mark_weaver>that would be ideal, if we can reach him in time and he agrees.

<Steap_>yes

<Steap_>the idea is that I was thinking of doing that without asking :)

<Steap_>and if does not agree, well, ph4n70m4s could just not apply :)

<mark_weaver>I'd much prefer for him to be mentor.

<Steap_>yes

<mark_weaver>otoh, if I don't have to agree to any onerous google legalese, and he's not reachable in time, I might also consider it. it would certainly be good to move things forward.

<Steap_>he knows Guile/Hurd/Guix quite well :D

<Steap_>mark_weaver: well, you need a Google account

<Steap_>mark_weaver: other than that, it's quite "ok" I think

<Steap_>you mostly need to say "the student did well, here are the results"

<Steap_>a_e: so, long story short, we have to propose ideas in the coming hours

<mark_weaver>well, there are always details, and I'm one of those unusual people who needs to read and understand any legalese that I'm required to agree to (whereas most people just click "ok")

<Steap_>a_e: I suggest you email summer-of-code@gnu.org with the proposals you're interested in mentoring

<Steap_>mark_weaver: yes, I see what you mean

<a_e>Hello! I just proposed an idea on the mailing list. Actually, it came from Sree, but I do not find his messafe any more.

<Steap_>mark_weaver: I'm also quite a pain in the ass when it comes to signing papers :)

<Steap_>a_e: ok, good

<a_e>But I do not feel competent enough to mentor anyone. I think only civodul knows how all these package format and hydra things work...

<ph4n70m4s>some info about mentors from apache http://community.apache.org/guide-to-being-a-mentor.html

<Steap_>a_e: can't see your post on http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/summer-of-code/2014-02/threads.html

<Steap_>a_e: I'm pretty there are projects you could mentor

<Steap_>a_e: did you specify a possible mentor in your message ?

<a_e>I mean, guix-devel.

<a_e>I wonder if I should suggest civodul as possible mentor ;-)

<ph4n70m4s>mark_weaver: more info about mentoring http://www.google-melange.com/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2014/help_page#1._What_is_a_mentoring_organization

<a_e>But this would not be very polite.

<Steap_>a_e: yeah, but we can't really not submit the project ph4n70m4s is interested in

<a_e>I am not sure it is a valid project.

<Steap_>how so ?

<a_e>In what is it different from getting a bootable linux system?

<Steap_>well, it's a Hurd system :)

<a_e>I think the work is more or less the same in getting linux and hurd images in qemu and eventually to boot.

<a_e>But I do not really know.

<Steap_>but it can take 3 months

<mark_weaver>a_e: fwiw, I suspect that apart from packing the hurd itself, there would be a fair bit of bug fixing and patching needed to get things working on the hurd. there certainly was for mips64el.

<Steap_>I remember having issues with Guile on Debian GNU/Hurd

<mark_weaver>(a small number of patches, but non-trivial amount of time finding the roots of the problems)

<Steap_>so it's not trivial

<mark_weaver>like any port at this point, it would start by running Guix within an existing host system. probably debian in the case of the hurd.

<a_e>I see, you mean getting the packages to compile so that they work with the hurd instead of linux-libre headers?

<Steap_>yes, but I think you'd need another libc

<Steap_>or something

<Steap_>so it's already quite hard

<Steap_>I think building"hello" on Debian Hurdi s already difficult :)

<a_e>Hm, the gnu hurd does not work with the gnu libc? How peculiar!

<Steap_>a_e: I think the bootstrap binaries might be different

<Steap_>and everything really low-level :)

<mark_weaver>the bootstrap is tricky, and would probably need modifications.

<mark_weaver>the hurd does use GNU libc, but that libc has to be built against mach and mig and hurd.

<Steap_>so we'd need another package

<Steap_>libc-hurd :)

<mark_weaver>and I'd be surprised if there aren't lots of packages that need patching.

<Steap_>mark_weaver: The amount of patches in Debian GNU/Hurd is crazy

<mark_weaver>Steap_: no, I think that would be a can of worms.

<mark_weaver>Steap_: I think we need to call it glibc, but it would be built differently on the hurd. more inputs, and the bootstrap would need to be adjusted I think.

<Steap_>ok

<mark_weaver>well, the bootstrap would certainly need to be adjusted, and that work would probably be not entirely trivial.

<mark_weaver>having said all this, I don't have a good sense of how much work it would be altogether. we need civodul.

<Steap_>So, what's the bus factor here?

<mark_weaver>heh

<mark_weaver>I could learn anything I need to know about Guix with time. I'm good at reading source code.

<mark_weaver>but right now, we don't have time.

<a_e>It sounds as if you have a good idea of what is needed. You should mentor then!

<Steap_>a_e: let's put both Ludo and Mark as possible mentors

<Steap_>a_e: is Sree around ? He could probably mentor your Gnunet proposal

<a_e>Are you sure he did not want to carry it out?

<Steap_>erf

<mark_weaver>I wish we had this conversation a day or two ago.

<Steap_>yeah

<mark_weaver>today is a very busy day for me. I don't have time to do the necessary research.

<Steap_>Weshould make sure someoe is in charge of the GSoC in GNU :)

<Steap_>mark_weaver: yeah, I can't catch a break these days

<a_e>Let us wait for a while if civodul connects.

<a_e>We still have a few hours.

<Steap_>a_e: it's almost night time for civodul :)

<ph4n70m4s>I know being a mentor would be a lot of work for you guys, but I will work hard and I will make sure your time won't go in vain

<ph4n70m4s>:-)

<ph4n70m4s>a_e: sorry for replying only to you at the email, gmail screw up again :P

<Steap_>do we have some sort of wiki page ?

<ph4n70m4s>for gsoc?

<ph4n70m4s> http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2014/help_page

<Steap_>yeah, other projects just link a wiki page

<Steap_>but I don't think we have one

<ph4n70m4s>let me see what I can find

<ph4n70m4s> http://community.apache.org/gsoc.html

<ph4n70m4s>in apache they have a category about gsoc

<ph4n70m4s> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/GSOC_2012

<mark_weaver>someone on #guile, who apparently works for google, is helping me find the exact legalese I'd have to agree to. if it's acceptable to me, I'd probably be willing to be a mentor. but I wonder how much else I'd have to do in the next few hours.

<a_e> https://www.gnu.org/software/soc-projects/ideas-2014.html

<a_e>The Gnunet suggestion is already up there.

<mark_weaver>if someone could help me find out exactly what I'd need to do, and by when, it would be helpful.

<mark_weaver>I actually already have a Google account. I got it for Codejam, and haven't used it for anything else.

<mark_weaver>(hopefully I can find the password :)

<a_e>That is the problem. I have accounts for which I need to create a new password every time I use them ;-)

<mark_weaver>I'm actually just kidding. while it's true that I haven't logged in since last year's Code Jam, I keep careful track of my passwords.

<mark_weaver>(I'm not happy that I have to run non-free javascript to log in, but I do have some pragmatism in me, and it would be good to enable more work on free software)

<Steap_>a_e: same for me :)

<Steap_>mark_weaver: I think for the moment, you jsut need to put your name in the mail to summer-of-code@gnu.org

<mark_weaver>the thing is, until I see the legalese, I don't know if I'm a potential mentor or not.

<Steap_>yes

<Steap_> http://paste.debian.net/82956/ <- my proposal from last year

<Steap_>I think I'll re-send it

<mark_weaver>even a googler is having trouble finding the legalese :-(

<ph4n70m4s>I asked on #gsoc

<ph4n70m4s>about mentors

<mark_weaver>he says: "still working on it. I couldn't find anything definitive, and I tried to contact an internal person but it's lunch time here. Still working on it. :-)"

<ph4n70m4s><stqism> ph4n70m4s: You just have to be 18 and in a country where it isn't forbidden

<ph4n70m4s>and have a google account

<ph4n70m4s>that what they told me

<ph4n70m4s>for mentors

<mark_weaver> http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2014/org_admin_agreement

<mark_weaver>I'm reading it now.

<ph4n70m4s>:-)

<mark_weaver>ouch. "6.5 Amendments. Google reserves the right at any time to amend this Agreement. Any changes made will be effective immediately upon notice, which we may give either by posting the revised Agreement on the Site or via electronic mail. Your continued participation in Google Summer of Code after such notice will be deemed acceptance of such changes."

<ph4n70m4s>....

<mark_weaver>I'm sorry, that's a deal breaker for me.

<ph4n70m4s>that's bad to hear...

<mark_weaver>I'm very excited about the work you'd like to do, and would be willing to do a lot, but I'm not willing to give Google a blank agreement with my signature on it, which is essentially what that boils down to.

<Steap_>mark_weaver: this might be valid in the US

<Steap_>mark_weaver: but I'd like to see them try this kind of shit in Europe :)

<ph4n70m4s>mark_weaver: you will still be able to help me without being a mentor :-)

<mark_weaver>yes

<mark_weaver>gladly

<ph4n70m4s>now let's just wait for ludo

<ph4n70m4s>something i read in the summer-of-code@gnu.org list

<ph4n70m4s>No problem. The list of ideas can be further improved/completed

<ph4n70m4s>after/if we get admitted as a mentoring org. Google was just puzzled

<ph4n70m4s>because our ideas page contained no ideas! :)

<ph4n70m4s>Jose E. Marchesi wrote this

<ph4n70m4s>so we can relax

<a_e>mark_weaver: An agreement which one party can change unilaterally without notice (posting on some site does not count as notice) looks quite illegal to me.

<mark_weaver>perhaps, but I don't have time to get a reliable legal opinion on that before the deadline, and even if I did, it wouldn't matter. I refuse to sign an agreement with clauses that I don't actually agree to, in the hopes that a court would indemnify me.

<Steap_>a_e: Do not underestimate the US :)

<mark_weaver>right

<mark_weaver>I have close to zero faith in the reasonableness of the US court system.

<Steap_>a_e: The more I hear about the US, the more I'm convinced that I'm being lied to about them

<mark_weaver>and I don't have the time or financial resources to go to court anyway.

<Steap_>Everything about this country seems crazy :D

<ph4n70m4s>crazy americans

<Steap_>ph4n70m4s: so, does it mean we can work on this tomorrow ?

<Steap_>ph4n70m4s: are do we still have to honour the deadline ?

<ph4n70m4s>if gnu has enough projects on the gnu gsoc page

<Steap_>where is it again ?

<ph4n70m4s>we can do it tomorrow