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<trannus_aran>Omg how did I only find out about guile-hall JUST now? 🫠

<trannus_aran>That being said, it would be nice if guile could just handle its own build system entirely á la build.zig or nob.h

<ArneBab>ieure: as far as I know Racket intentionally decided to be more static that common lisp, so I think Guile may be your best bet to get that kind of interactive experience.

<ArneBab>skeemer: as far as I know Racket intentionally decided to be more static that common lisp, so I think Guile may be your best bet to get that kind of interactive experience.

<ArneBab>ieure: (sorry, wrang name …)

<ArneBab>trannus_aran: if you need guile to handle the build, then it gets hard to bootstrap.

<ArneBab>trannus_aran: that said, Guix is as close to a guile-based build system for guile as it gets.

<ArneBab>Down to creating a tiny scheme shell for bootstrapping that’s built on Mes: https://www.gnu.org/software/mes/

<trannus_aran>ArneBab: oh right! I was talking to a friend about making a C-like systems language that used s-exps (easier for my brain)

<trannus_aran>And she brought up Mes as sort of the "closest we have so far" solution

<trannus_aran>Also, since I haven't really plumbed the depths of the average hall project...what does guile actually need makefiles for?

<rlb>trannus_aran: perhaps see also https://prescheme.org/ depending.

<rlb>but it's "in progress"

<rlb>I believe

<trannus_aran>rlb: yuppp she literally brought that one up too X) I think that's even being worked on by a friend of a friend?

<rlb>ACTION is quite interested

<rlb>too

<ieure>Is there something that works like `call-with-output-file', but which appends to the file?

<ieure>I guess I have to (call-with-port (open-file ...))

<lechner>Hi, why are (eq? 'a 'b) and (eq? a 'b) #t, please, when a and b are both 1 but not when they are both 2?

<ieure>lechner, Can you share an executable form demonstrating what you're talking about?

<ieure>(eq? 'a 'b) should never be #t, because you're comparing symbols.

<lechner>i'm in my REPL

<trannus_aran>yeah, AFAIK, eq? checks if for strict object equivalence, not "just" equal values (eqv)

<trannus_aran>*checks for

<lechner>maybe i can film it

<ieure>lechner, If you can just share ex (let ((a ...) (b ...)) (eq? ...))

<ieure>That would be fine

<ieure>lechner, I'm not sure if (eq? a 'b) is a typo or not, is why I'm asking. That would be #f unless the value of a is 'b

<lechner>no, those are not typos but thanks for asking!

<lechner>could one of you try with this .guile init file, please? https://bpa.st/O3TQ

<lechner>you have to be on Guix

<ieure>lechner, Do I need `guix repl', or does `guile repl' suffice?

<ieure>Well, `guile'

<lechner>just "guile"

<ieure>lechner, The comparisons seem to work fine to me, but when you run `guile', you're in (guile-user), and you're testing for (guix-user).

<ieure>scheme@(guile-user)> (equal? (module-name (current-module)) '(guile-user))

<ieure>$1 = #t

<lechner>ieure / does guile-user make a difference? the comparisons have the expected value for you?

<ieure>lechner, I don't understand your question.

<ieure>If you run `guile', then (module-name (current-module)) ;; -> (guile-user)

<ieure>And if you run `guix repl', then (module-name (current-module)) ;; -> (guix-user)

<ieure>The test in your code is (equal? (module-name (current-module)) '(guix-user))

<ieure>Which should work for `guix repl', but won't work for `guile'.

<lechner>which value do you get for (eq? 'a 'b) ?

<ieure>#f

<ieure>Which is expected, since 'a and 'b are different symbols.

<lechner>okay, I restarted 'guile' and it works for now. but i'm not kidding https://bpa.st/3QVQ

<ieure>lechner, That's very weird. I cannot reproduce.

<ieure>I get #t, #f, #f, respectively.

<ieure>Which is exactly what I'd expect.

<lechner>yeah, thanks for trying! it works here too, now

<ieure>Must have been something hosed in your REPL state, but I don't know what would cause that. A module shadowing `eq?' maybe?

<ieure>Too bad you can't see if eq? is eq? to eq?

<lechner>i prefer not to think about it. it would mean sleepless nights

<rlb>symbol-hash

<rlb>There's also a way to print the pointer value of anything, but I can't recall where it is offhand.

<ArneBab>trannus_aran: a Makefile is the simplest way to compile with dependencies taken into account. It solves a lot of problems with little effort in a way that is compatible with bootstrapping.

<trannus_aran>no I mean I'm familiar with them from C and what they're good for, I'm just surprised that guile distribution calls for it (thinking of other lisp dialects, here)

<ArneBab>The background is that Guile itself has significant amounts of Guile Scheme for the implementation, but it cannot assume having Guile Scheme from the start (it bootstraps itself from C and a interpreter to then get to optimizing bytecode compilation in Scheme), so building of both Scheme and C is done via Makefile. Due to that the support for building Scheme from a Makefile must already be available and can be re-used for Guile-using

<ArneBab>projects.

<trannus_aran>ahhh, it's about uniformity of the build process even to the level of bootstrapping, I gotcha

<ArneBab>Yes

<ArneBab>(you put it much more nicely than my wording ☺)

<trannus_aran>Very cool! :)

<trannus_aran>Would be nice if we had a tool in guile to generate the makefiles, so we could cut the number of req'd languages from 3 to 2, though ;P

<ArneBab>trannus_aran: that we would still need to bootstrap Guile to generate the Makefile to bootstrap Guile to … ☺

<old>You could just generate a shell script that respect the dependencies chain of the source files

<old>no need for makeifle if the goal is to compile the thing once

<meaty>is there anything like LASS (https://shinmera.github.io/LASS/) for scheme/guile?

<trannus_aran>ArneBab: but autotools and m4 don't have that same issue? :o

<trannus_aran>anyone know what to do for this weird guix make error with a hall project? guile3.0: symbol lookup error [...] /gnu/store/[...]-glibc-2.33/lib/libpthread.so.0: undefined symbol: __libc_pthread_init, version GLIBC_PRIVATE

<ArneBab>meaty: I only know that for html ⇒ https://dthompson.us/posts/rendering-html-with-sxml-and-gnu-guile.html

<ArneBab>trannus_aran: no, autotools and m4 are bootstrapped from just shell, and shell can be executed via gash which can run on MES which can be bootstrapped from stage0: https://www.gnu.org/software/mes/ — there are still some missing steps, but it is tiny already.

<dthompson>ArneBab: I should really update that blog post. it overcomplicates things because it didn't consider utf-8 encoding so there's lots of those escape sequences.

<dthompson>(haunt html) is not much code by comparison https://git.dthompson.us/haunt/tree/haunt/html.scm

<graywolf>Hi Guile people! I am curious, would someone have an example how to use g-golf to mouse a mouse from a command line program? Is that possible?

<daviid>graywolf: i don't understand the question

<graywolf>I want to write a guile program that move a mouse to specific coordinates (expressed in pixels). So, for example, ./move-mouse 100 222.

<graywolf>So I wonder whether I can use g-golf for that or I need to find some binding to libxcb (maybe? I have never done X11 stuff before)

<graywolf>I see the typo now, should have been "to move a mouse" :)

<daviid>graywolf: to track mouse and swipe events, using g-golf, you need gtk and a gtkwidget instance (or a subclass of)

<daviid> https://docs.gtk.org/gtk4/class.Widget.html?q=Controller

<graywolf>That looks... complex. Thanks for the pointers nevertheless, I will read up on the topic. :)

<daviid>graywolf: you should ask in #gtk, if it is possible then it is possible using g-golf, but i never done this - but i a curious, why would you want to do this, what practicall example do you have in mind?

<graywolf>I wanted to try re-implementing a program called keynav in Guile. It basically chops a screen into a grid, and allows you to move the pointer using keyboard. So, as a first step, I just wanted to try moving the mouse around a bit. It is ages since I last did any GUI programming (and last time was on Windows...), so I wanted to start slow :)

<ieure>How does that relate to g-golf?

<graywolf>Well, g-golf is a GUI toolkit, and mouse is part of the GUI, so I thought maybe it would be easy using it.

<daviid>ok, but the grid would contain widgets, so you could navigate using 'groups and shortcuts' - but you could ask that same question (your last sentence) in #gtk, proviuding you'd be happy to use gtk

<graywolf>Will take a look, thanks :)

<daviid>graywolf: i asked in #introspection, and the main dev answered: 'Not with GTK. If you're using X11, you can use XWarpPointer() It's pretty terrible UX.'

<daviid>sneek: later tell graywolf i asked in #introspection, and the main dev answered: 'Not with GTK. If you're using X11, you can use XWarpPointer() It's pretty terrible UX.'

<sneek>Got it.

<ArneBab>dthompson: that would ne neat!

<ArneBab>There’s also htmlprag: https://www.nongnu.org/guile-lib/doc/ref/htmlprag/ — that works really well.

<ArneBab>⇒ shtml->html

<daviid>sneek later tell graywolf if you want to learn to dev a modern app, you should learn from examples of modern app, the g-golf adwaita-1-demo and gtk4 examples would be a good start, my 2c

<sneek>Okay.

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2025-04-07.log