<davexunit>ACTION once again thinks about an s-expression representation for SQL <paroneayea>ACTION sitting in an anti-gpl talk which is rounding off the night for lightning talks at OSCON :( ***michel_mno_afk is now known as michel_mno
***michel_mno is now known as michel_mno_afk
***michel_mno_afk is now known as michel_mno
***michel_mno is now known as michel_mno_afk
***michel_mno_afk is now known as michel_mno
<davexunit>ACTION wrote the very beginnings of an sexp -> sql converter using a parser combinator strategy ***michel_mno is now known as michel_mno_afk
<davexunit>I already know what to expect from the comments, but let's do it anyway. <davexunit>I can't believe (well actually I can) the speaker was from the Apache Software Foundation. <paroneayea>davexunit: yes it surprised me that they identified themselves as such while taking an anti-GPL position <paroneayea>because that made it sound like they were speaking on behalf of the ASF <mark_weaver>Ubuntu claims a very restrictive copyright on the binaries it builds. basically, those binaries are non-free software. <mark_weaver>they do this on all the binaries that they are allowed to, but they aren't allowed to for the copylefted ones. <davexunit>mark_weaver: someone told me awhile ago that because of guile's "unfortunate" licensing it cannot be used on sony's playstation console, iOS, etc. <davexunit>the anti-GPL rhetoric has worked so well it has convinced people that it is *our* fault that Sony, Apple, etc. have oppressive licensing restrictions on their devices. <mark_weaver>well, I don't know the details of Sony's restrictions, but Apple flatly refuses to let developers pass the essential freedoms on to the users. <davexunit>it's okay that a company does this because they're powerful and have to make money, so it's the free software developer's fault for not accepting what has become the status quo <mark_weaver>whereas the GPL is designed to ensure that all users have those freedoms that Apple won't let their users have. <davexunit>paroneayea: you're on the HN front page now. that was quick. :) <amz3>making money is a poor argument. They are powerful that is all. <davexunit>amz3: you and I know this, but a lot of other people are more sympathetic to business. <davexunit>HN is composed of "temporarily embarrassed millionaires", so I expect comments much like that of the ASF speaker. <amz3>paroneayea: you don't say that gpl is better for innovation, is there a reason for that? <paroneayea>amz3: it's partly a response article, and I do say that GPL is better for user freedom <paroneayea>and I'm not sure that as in terms of making your ideas better that it's true <paroneayea>but I think that it's well coupled with innovative software <amz3>I'm looking for another question to ask on HN <mark_weaver>amz3: claiming that it's better for "innovation" is a weaker argument. it's less important than freedom, and it's far less obvious what is good for "innovation", whatever that means. <amz3>IMO freedom is innovation <davexunit>"innovation" is a word that everyone seems to interpret differently <davexunit>"innovation" has become a corporate word that is best avoided. <amz3>my interest in building software, is allowing me and others too, to be able to express their ideas. I understand the new way I have to express myself as innovation, since I could not do it before, it's new and it's a new freedom <mark_weaver>innovation doesn't imply freedom at all. it can just mean that companies have free reign to make profit and innovate in a way of their choosing. <davexunit>paroneayea: lol the first HN comment is *exactly* what I expected <davexunit>"fails to mention that sometimes providing the user with the best products means protecting the investment and creative effort painstakingly poured into development of a product." <amz3>yes, let's just forget the word innovate. <mark_weaver>davexunit: I hardly ever look at HN anymore. I find the prevailing attitudes there too depressing. <mark_weaver>having said that, it is certainly useful to try to engage in discussion there <davexunit>a former FSF outreach person says he often gets frustrated reading HN comments, then sees a comment that he actually agrees with, then realizes that I wrote it. <amz3>People aren't that helpful. Maybe it's just me, say for graphdb or python in the browser, there hardly any interesting comments and seldom helpful replies. It's weak community. Maybe it's because I use my real name <amz3>maybe I choose poorly my reading (on HN), most of it is "here my new lib". Seldom people compare software outside benchmarks <davexunit>a fair number of lisp articles make it to the front page <davexunit>any licensing discussion is rage inducing, though. <mark_weaver>we share an interest in lisp with them, but obviously they aren't interested in user freedom. they seem to be mostly of the entrepreneurial mindset. <mark_weaver>wishing to use cool technology to start a company and get rich <amz3>some of them are selfish. some entrepreneurs are selfish. <amz3>and it's throws money out of the window <mark_weaver>they do their best not to waste their money, but instead to ensure that more of it comes back to them than they put in. <mark_weaver>but it is too bad that resources are primarily invested in projects that will benefit the few who invested, instead of projects that help the most number of people. <amz3>but the overall outcome, they wast energy because several companies do the exact same thing several time, they change colors and nother rule in the gamification system that is all (and rebuild everything from scratch everytime) <mark_weaver>well, the only way to avoid that redundancy is to have everything centrally planned. <amz3>or be wise and contribute (or fork) without closing <amz3>it doesn't have be centrally planned <amz3>IMO centrally planned is not possible <mark_weaver>well, people tend to disagree about how best to do things, and in the case of entrepreneurs: who will get the profits. <mark_weaver>and it's not always clear even to the wisest planners which approach will turn out best. <amz3>(IMO centrally planned is not a reality anywhere) <mark_weaver>well, I would say that the entire world is mostly moving to central planning, in the form of corporations who are taking control of the world. well, really they already mostly control the world. <amz3>Central planning in the hand of corporations with an "s" <mark_weaver>sure, obviously there is not a single central planner for the entire world, yet. <mark_weaver>but things are moving in that direction, unfortunately. <paroneayea>I can't believe that I'm getting such a positive response from hacker news of all places <mark_weaver>paroneayea: I can't find your HN post anymore, do you have a link? <daviid>how does one update a savannah project page [not the homepage pointed by the savannah project page, but the sdavannah page itself] ?