IRC channel logs

<davexunit>bye!

<janneke>ijp: i don't get it...why do you ask?

<janneke>you could do fun things lijk

<janneke>like

<janneke> ((lambda (f) (f (begin (display "launch the missiles\\n") 3))) display)

<janneke>launch the missiles

<ijp>janneke: will the missiles always be launched, no matter what f is?

<janneke>try cdr instead of display

<ijp>a simple yes/no will suffice

<janneke>i wonder about the 3 though...

<janneke>nope

<ijp>what makes you say that?

<janneke>uh?

<ijp>fine, I'll jump to the end

<janneke>if f is not a function, that won't work?

<ijp>actually, it will error, but the missiles will be launched first

<janneke>ah, that's what you mean

<janneke>hmm

<ijp>the reason is, scheme evaluates function arguments before you enter into the function

<taylanub>janneke: by the way your above example will also display "3" after the missile line

<janneke>nice

<ijp>but, *and* does not do that

<ijp>(and #f (begin (display "launch the missiles\\n") 3)) will not launch any missiles

<janneke>exactly...bummer

<janneke>yes, not a function ... scary macro shit

<janneke>or syntax, whatever :-)

*janneke appreciates the clue-bat

<taylanub>if you know C-like syntax, (and x y z) is not much more than 'x && y && z'

<ijp>now, we *could* make it work, but then you need to give up knowing whether or not those missiles will be launched

<taylanub>(likewise for 'or' and '||')

<ijp>you could create a macro (no-missiles <form>) that strips out any occurrences of the (display "launch the missiles\\n") form

<ijp>and then ((lambda (f) (f (begin (display "launch the missiles\\n") 3))) no-missiles) would not launch missiles

<taylanub>wait what?

<ijp>but scheme does not allow this

<taylanub>we first-class macros now or what do I miss? :P

<taylanub>oh

<ijp>janneke: most of the time this will not be a significant problem，but keep it in mind

<ijp>if you come up with a convincing example for why it should be allowed, please share

<janneke>ok, thanks

<janneke>i was just looking for a way to reduce the value of a list (of tests) to: all true /false

<taylanub>ijp: I assume J. Shutt's dissertation didn't convince you? (I'm not saying it did me, I'm still indifferent.)

<ijp>taylanub: I have a few examples I think *could* be convincing, like for autogenerating a good table-driven parser, but I never hear them from the people pushing fexprs

<ijp>anyway, I *think* I could do this with first class functions

<ijp>maybe for JITting your own program

<ijp>but we haven't tapped out first class functions by a long shot

<ijp>I was rereading http://okmij.org/ftp/tagless-final/#tagless-final today, and in it they point out that much of the type work going on for doing typed-dsls in typed-languages with GADTs etc. just isn't necessary

<ijp>taylanub: basically, IMO, the power/utility ratio is terrible

<ijp>like a petrol-powered power-screwdriver

<ijp>contrarily, first class functions are solar powered chainsaws

<dsmith-work>Eh? I think I understand that, and then I don't, and then..

<ijp>I'll get my analogy guys to work on that and get back to you

<ijp>how about: first class functions are volvos, macros are humvees, and fexprs are optimus prime

<ijp>first class functions: reliable, relatively cheap, good mileage

<ijp>macros: more expensive, good in terrain your first class functions can't handle

<ijp>fexprs: cool looking, can dynamically reconfigure midjourney, needs an expensive hollywood special effects team

<ijp>and the use cases are NOT REAL

<ijp>dsmith-work: better? worse?

<dsmith-work>Heh

<dsmith-work>sneek: later tell ijp lol

<sneek>Got it.

<dsmith-work>!uptime

<sneek> 00:03:43 up 2 days, 11 min, 0 users, load average: 0.01, 0.02, 0.05

<dsmith-work>Hmm.

<dsmith-work>Must have lost power..

<civodul>Hello Guilers!

<nalaginrut>heya

<taylanub>sneek: later tell ijp b-b-but Optimus Prime is the coolest!

<sneek>Got it.

<mario-goulart>Hi. Is this a bug? http://paste.call-cc.org/paste?id=08fceb546904ea386cf56c9fe11d299680896d9a

<davexunit>I'm not sure, but today I learned that there's a gap buffer implementation in guile. that's cool.

<mario-goulart>Here's the output: http://paste.call-cc.org/paste?id=08fceb546904ea386cf56c9fe11d299680896d9a#a1

<wingo>i have never used that code before

<wingo>i don't even think it has any tests :)

<wingo>er, meant to write :(, but maybe that was a freudian slip

<ijp>davexunit: yeah, there's a lot of undocumented crap in ice-9

<sneek>ijp, you have 2 messages.

<sneek>ijp, dsmith-work says: lol

<sneek>ijp, taylanub says: b-b-but Optimus Prime is the coolest!

<ijp>mario-goulart: ran your code, didn't reproduce

<mario-goulart>O_O

<ijp>mario-goulart: the code hasn't changed in N years, but what version are you using?

<mario-goulart>Here I have

<mario-goulart>$ guile-2.0 --version

<mario-goulart>guile (GNU Guile) 2.0.5-deb+1-3

<mario-goulart>I can also reproduce that issue with the CHICKEN's port (http://wiki.call-cc.org/egg/gap-buffer)

<ijp>hmm, what could possibly have changed

<ijp>the only thing in that file has changed recently is the license in 2009, so it would need to be something under the hood

<ijp>but I just tried it in 1.8 and I get no change

<mario-goulart>Weird. I have only that guile version on the system I'm using right now.

*mario-goulart installs guile 1.8

<mario-goulart>Works in guile 1.8, indeed.

<mario-goulart>I confirm "diff ./1.8/ice-9/gap-buffer.scm ./2.0/ice-9/gap-buffer.scm" only shows differences in the licence

<ijp>maybe a broken (and subsequently fixed) optimisation pass?

<mario-goulart>Or some "unspecified" operation.

<mario-goulart>I suspect that because I can reproduce the issue in CHICKEN.

<ijp>right, that might be more likely

<ijp>I have to leave, but I will be back in a few hours

<ijp>sup dawgz

<ijp>mario-goulart: figure out the problem?

<mario-goulart>ijp: unfortunately no

<mario-goulart>ijp: are you the author of gap-buffer?

<daviid>mario-goulart: did you try with the very latest stable?

<ijp>mario-goulart: thankfully, no

<mario-goulart>daviid: of guile?

<daviid>yes

<mario-goulart>daviid: no, the most recent version I have here is 2.0.5-deb+1-3

<daviid>i'd definitely try the latest then

<ijp>daviid: even though this code has not changed since 2009?

<daviid>ijp: yes, i would try that, especially because you said you can't reproduce, what version did you tested it with?

<ijp>mario-goulart: try (compile-and-load "/tmp/foo.scm" #:opts '(#:partial-eval? #f))

<ijp>you'll need to (use-modules (system base compile)) I think

<ijp>daviid: it also fails for mario-goulart on the chicken port of that code

<mario-goulart>A friend of mine tested on 2.0.11 and could NOT reproduce the issue.

<daviid>but it runs on yours

<daviid>yep

<daviid>mario-goulart: you can install testing just for guile if you're using stable debian

<mario-goulart>ijp: (compile-and-load "guile-gap-buffer.scm" #:opts '(#:partial-eval? #f)) produces the same results here.

<ijp>which means 1) it either has nothing to do with partial-eval? or 2) I've forgotten the options syntax again

<mario-goulart>:-D

<mario-goulart>daviid: I'm gonna try on some VMs I have here.

<mario-goulart>I have one with Mint 16.

<mario-goulart>Does Thien-Thi Nguyen hang around here?

<daviid>mario-goulart: if i was you, i'd change /etc/apt/preferences, add testing in sources.list for guile

<ijp>mario-goulart: I've never seen him on

<ijp>I imagine we'd argue frequently

<mario-goulart>I can reproduce the issue on 2.0.9 (mint 16)

<daviid>or install guile from source tree because debian is always [very] late

<ijp>hmm, weird

<ijp>check this out http://pastebin.com/m92QgVD9

<ijp>the interesting one (for me) is $16

<ijp>looking at that, if you used the same offsets for both gb->string, then you'd get your output

<dsmith-work>Didn't ttn do gap-buffer?

<dsmith-work>Looks like.

<davexunit>what's up with ttn? he seems to be stuck in the guile 1.8 days.

<davexunit>did guile go in a direction that he doesn't like?

<add^_>ello all

<davexunit>hey add^_

<ijp>he's stuck in the 1.4 days

<add^_>:-)

<add^_>I wonder why..

<davexunit>for instance, he doesn't want to break compatibility with ancient versions of guile in guile-sdl.

<add^_>Yeah

<davexunit>and since sdl2 is out, and guile-sdl is written in C and hard to hack, I'm going to write guile-sdl2 in pure guile.

<add^_>ooh

<add^_>I've been out for too long it seems

<add^_>Wait

<add^_>I misunderstood, nevermind me.

<davexunit>I need to actually write it, of course. until then it's just talk.

*add^_ just bought a purely functional datastructures book.

<daviid>davexunit: be careful depending on anything he writes and [does not] maintains

<davexunit>daviid: I currently depend on guile-sdl.

<davexunit>to be fair, he fixed bugs for me and made new releases.

<daviid>i know

<add^_>"Purely functional Data Structures - Chris Okasaki"

<add^_>I forgot, I should have asked someone if they've read it and liked it (in here).

<janneke>that's it. i've had it with unity and am considering reverting to sawfish;

<janneke>anyone using that, or is there something better these days?

<add^_>guile-wm? ;-)

<add^_>Dunno actually

<davexunit>guile-wm just needs a bit more work to be super awesome for regular use.

<davexunit>mwitmer, merge my pull request!

<add^_>define "a bit"

<davexunit>I like to pretend he's on #guile...

<add^_>:-/

<davexunit>add^_: a couple blocker bugs

<davexunit>sometimes it stops responding to key input

<add^_>oh

<add^_>ugh

<davexunit>need an escape sequence for the prefix key

<davexunit>by default the prefix is C-t, so it doesn't work in emacs.

<davexunit>C-t C-t should escape it, but that feature isn't implemented.

<add^_>Ah

<add^_>I don't remember if I should be using branch 1) v2.1.0 or 2) stable-2.0 ...

<davexunit>stable-2.0 most likely

<add^_>Hm

<add^_>ok

<davexunit>if you want the latest stable code

<add^_>yeah

*add^_ is having the same problem this time as last time

<add^_>says 2.0.9 when I run guile --version

<add^_>I thought it was up in version 2.0.10 or something

<add^_>and yes, I ran make _version this time :-P

<davexunit>make clean, autoreconf -if, make?

<add^_>didn't have it installed before on this system

<add^_>unless...

<davexunit>oh

<add^_>nope

<davexunit>your version should be 2.0.11

<add^_>weird

<davexunit>from the dir you built from, run meta/guile --version

<add^_>That is correct

<add^_>So why is it installing the old version?

*add^_ is confused

<davexunit>do you have one version installed in /usr/local and the other in /usr?

<add^_>Hmm

<davexunit>which guile

<add^_>Removed all installed guile data on my system.. Now installing again..

<add^_>It was 2.0.9

<add^_>Oh, now it's correct.

<add^_>But when I run ldconfig it tells me that libguile-2.0.so.22.7.2-gdb.scm is not an ELF file - it has the wrong magic bytes at the start.

<davexunit>add^_: yeah, happens to me, too

<add^_>why is that? :-/

<davexunit>it's a known thing. hasn't harmed anything for me.

<add^_>ah ok

<davexunit>I can't remember

<davexunit>if wingo or civodul were around they'd know

<add^_>mm

<add^_>Haven't they been on recently or something?

<davexunit>they have

<add^_>sneek: seen wingo?

<davexunit>but not now

<sneek>wingo was here Apr 17 at 02:01 pm UTC, saying: er, meant to write :(, but maybe that was a freudian slip.

<add^_>uh

<davexunit>april? he said that today.

<add^_>Oh

<add^_>ok

<davexunit>sneek: you've been drinking, haven't you?

<add^_>sneek: botdrink

<davexunit>glugluglug

<add^_>:-D

<add^_>brb

<add^_>weird, I must have just missed

<add^_>it

<add^_>and again

<janneke>guile-wm?

<janneke>that sounds cool!

<davexunit> https://github.com/mwitmer/guile-wm

<dsmith-work>add^_ : libguile-2.0.so.22.7.2-gdb.scm *isn't* an elf file. I'ts a scheme file.

<dsmith-work>add^_: Take a look at it.

<dsmith-work>add^_: It's extensions to gdb

<davexunit>oh yeah, that's what it was. the new gdb guile support stuff.

<dsmith-work>ldconfig is just being noisy

<jcca>Hi, Is there something like pyserial for guile?

<wingo>not familiar with pyserial

<wingo>what is that?

<jcca>for work with serial port. pyserial.sourceforge.net

<wingo>neat

<wingo>i don't know of anything at that nice abstraction layer

<wingo>of course you can open devices yourself but that's not as nice

<jcca>ok, got it. thanks wingo

<ft>jcca: If what you need from that is access to termios functionality for controlling baudrate and all that, I wrote https://github.com/ft/guile-termios - there's no fancy highlevel API as pyserial provides in there either, though.

<civodul>dsmith-work: do you think sneek could join #guix and make friends with the rest of us?

<civodul>i regularly miss it

<jcca>ft: Thanks I will try it

<jcca>ft: guile-termios looks good

<ft>jcca: Great. :)

<davexunit>civodul: what resources will we need in order to have an ARM port of guix?

<ft>jcca: I only tried it on linux, though.

<davexunit>oops, wrong channel. thought I was in #guix.

<jcca>yep, I use linux too

<ft>jcca: I wanted to try the bsds in virtual machines, but had quite some troubles building a recent guile version to try it on, so I gave up.

<jcca>ft: :)

<jcca>ft: I will try it on a ARM with debian, any issue I will let know you